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Episode 209

Episode 209 - Working When You Hurt

We've been through a lot these past couple of years. There have likely been some personal struggles for you and/or your family that distracted you from work. How in the world can you wrestle with a life-altering situation at home AND be the employee you aspire to be?

Here's the answer. You can't, and that's OK. Listen in as Bob and Josh share some stories from their personal lives in hopes of helping anyone out there that is struggling. How have you coped with situations like these? Let's discuss.

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Transcript
Bob:

I do.

Bob:

Every once in a while.

Bob:

You will give me that look really?

Bob:

Yeah.

Bob:

I'm not always a Dick.

Bob:

Not always.

Bob:

I think I always.

Bob:

Ew.

Bob:

Ew.

Bob:

You gave me a run run for the money.

Josh:

Pain, sadness,

Bob:

pain suffering.

Bob:

Yes.

Bob:

It's

Josh:

hard.

Josh:

Yeah.

Josh:

It's even more difficult when you're a team member or you're a leader of a group.

Josh:

What do you do?

Josh:

How do you handle that?

Josh:

How do you fight to be present when you're struggling with situations that

Josh:

you can't control like dogs, right?

Josh:

Like there's dogs that bark.

Josh:

There's nothing you can do about it, but you just gotta roll with it.

Josh:

You can't get distracted.

Josh:

No.

Bob:

Yeah.

Bob:

Well you can, but yeah, but it doesn't help any, so

Josh:

a while back, we did an episode about.

Josh:

Grief and dealing with things that are happening in the world and

Josh:

being supportive of people through all of that, this time we're going

Josh:

to dig into like personal things.

Josh:

When it's, you there's, challenges at home, or you have a family

Josh:

member that's struggling or ill, and you're just distracted.

Josh:

There's something more important than work that is splitting your mind in to, I

Josh:

don't know what the size of the piece is.

Josh:

but it splits your mind in two and it also affects your focus.

Josh:

Yeah.

Josh:

And how do you, how do you handle that with your teammates?

Josh:

When you know, you're not at the top of your game, because you've got another

Josh:

thing, you know, like dogs that are, that are pulling at your, your thoughts

Josh:

and dreams and all those things.

Josh:

So that's the, that's the topic

Bob:

for today?

Bob:

I mean, I think.

Bob:

I don't want to talk about the team dynamics and maybe I'm biased.

Bob:

But, I remember I went, I was, I was divorced years ago

Bob:

and I was in a leadership.

Bob:

I probably had a group of maybe a hundred, you know, 60 to a hundred

Bob:

people or something that reported to me.

Bob:

So I was in it, there was a lot of people, depending on me

Bob:

is the way I thought about it.

Bob:

And I was incredibly distracted by that.

Bob:

And so I think as a leader, all I'm going to say it's, it's hard for everyone.

Bob:

It's I think it's particularly hard for a leader to go through that.

Bob:

Because so many people are looking, I think people.

Bob:

I'm not anti the team perspective.

Bob:

I'm pro the leadership.

Bob:

I remember at the time everyone, everyone wanted my a game every

Bob:

hour of every day, there was no, you know, even if there was sympathy or

Bob:

empathy, it was like I had to bring it.

Bob:

There was all this pressure.

Bob:

So here I am struggling with something that's really hard.

Bob:

And and I felt like I was letting, not just me down or my team, but like a

Bob:

large group of people down, et cetera.

Bob:

So I think the leadership diner.

Bob:

Or it may be a little bit tougher.

Bob:

But I'm not saying it's not hard in a team.

Bob:

Yeah.

Bob:

Maybe the scale, the scale of the dependencies is what

Bob:

I'm really talking about.

Bob:

Right.

Bob:

It could be a team you're building a, you know, a flagship

Bob:

product or something like that.

Bob:

but the scope of it can be over, you know, oppressive as well.

Josh:

Yeah.

Josh:

There's, there's all of the pressures as a team member to beat.

Josh:

And to help and do all those things.

Josh:

But I do agree with the leadership role, there are additional eyes and

Josh:

expectations and, you know, a more 360 type view of you gotta be on your game.

Josh:

So it does.

Josh:

Make it hard, but I, but I do want to make sure that we respect and talk about

Bob:

the whole thing.

Bob:

Yeah.

Bob:

I'm not, that's what I'm saying.

Bob:

I'm always bringing is a dimension of maybe the visibility

Bob:

or something like that.

Bob:

Right.

Bob:

Whatever you want to call it.

Bob:

Yeah.

Bob:

Where do you want to, how do you want to start?

Josh:

I've got a very real situation over the past five months, been

Josh:

wrestling with a difficulty at home marriage and things like that.

Josh:

I'm not going to go into any details because that's none

Josh:

of your business listeners.

Josh:

But it has me, or it has had me very distracted.

Josh:

And I really struggled with myself because I knew I wasn't.

Josh:

100% of who I was when I was able to dedicate my full self to a role.

Josh:

So there were things that I chose to do that.

Josh:

Helped, I guess, I mean, we can talk through the actions that I

Josh:

took, but this is something I've been thinking about recording an

Josh:

episode on, but like, I wasn't ready.

Josh:

And you and I have talked about, this is a thing that we wanted to

Josh:

cover, but I just wasn't ready.

Josh:

And I'm in a spot now where, it's important to me to talk about this so

Josh:

that anybody else that is wrestling with.

Josh:

Knows number one, you're not alone.

Josh:

Right?

Josh:

Number two, it's hard.

Josh:

And number three, just some thoughts and ideas of what we've done that

Josh:

has helped us in various ways.

Josh:

And hopefully just one little bit of those can help.

Josh:

Whoever is struggling with anything.

Bob:

I mean, it was not weird, but it was we've been, we've been, recording

Bob:

the medic cast and, And we've been more infrequent of late or the last

Bob:

few months it's been infrequent.

Bob:

Right.

Bob:

And I didn't know.

Bob:

And then when we did record it, I could tell that you were you and

Bob:

this isn't a surprise, but you know, we've talked about you were off.

Bob:

So I could sense that you were off in some way.

Bob:

I didn't know why or what.

Bob:

And you didn't share.

Bob:

And so I, I, it didn't, it wasn't a big deal.

Bob:

It was just, it just felt odd to me.

Bob:

It was like, oh, something, you know, we're off.

Bob:

Yeah.

Bob:

So, but I could sense it, right.

Bob:

It was, it was clear, like it was just a different pattern.

Bob:

Like we were in a different pattern.

Bob:

What.

Bob:

I was relieved, not relieved.

Bob:

That's the wrong word.

Bob:

I just felt different when you disclosed, because I was like,

Bob:

oh yeah, like that makes sense.

Bob:

Right?

Bob:

Like, I didn't know.

Bob:

Yeah, it could have been anything.

Bob:

It could, well, I actually, I was personalizing it.

Bob:

I was like, I pissed him off in some pain.

Bob:

Right.

Bob:

I was, I was mentally, I was like, you know, I'm normally a jerk was, I was

Bob:

overly a jerk one day or something.

Bob:

And so when I didn't talk about it, it's, you know, you reflect in different ways.

Bob:

So I guess the knowing was good.

Bob:

Yeah.

Bob:

Right.

Bob:

Like knowing.

Bob:

Right.

Bob:

There's something going on.

Bob:

So at least it's normal.

Bob:

Right, right.

Bob:

I know what's going on.

Bob:

And then I can help.

Bob:

The other thing is you know, like I want to, I, you know, knowing is like,

Bob:

you know, I'm there for you, right.

Bob:

So, Like if you, if you made, so not knowing means my behavior won't change.

Bob:

Right.

Bob:

Right.

Bob:

But knowing means, you know, if you gave me a call and you said, I need a beer, or

Bob:

I need to talk, I would be there for you.

Bob:

Right.

Bob:

So I would say the earlier, even though it's uncomfortable, sometimes the earlier

Bob:

people let other people know, maybe it's, a few confident few in your circle.

Bob:

I think there's good enough.

Bob:

And in asking, not asking for help, but letting people know

Bob:

that you're struggling, the sooner you can do that, the better the

Bob:

universe can respond to you.

Bob:

Would you buy that or, yeah, that

Josh:

that's, that's the first step that I took at work because I,

Bob:

I started to feel

Josh:

bad that I was incapable of performing.

Josh:

Like I know I can.

Josh:

Yeah.

Josh:

And I reached the realization that.

Josh:

Going through what I've been going through.

Josh:

There's no way for me to be 100% work, Josh, like I used to be.

Josh:

And I had, I have two trusted folks that I've worked with and I've been open with.

Josh:

And one of them was my boss.

Josh:

And I just set up some time to talk with these two folks and I share.

Josh:

Not a lot of details, but like, Hey, I'm really struggling.

Josh:

And I know I'm not.

Josh:

100% Josh.

Josh:

And I don't know when that will be back.

Josh:

So I want you to know if you're detecting anything kind of like Bob was that here's,

Josh:

what's going on, I'm working through it.

Josh:

I'm getting help, but like, I'm not going to be able to do what I normally do.

Josh:

And the response was fantastic.

Josh:

Yeah.

Josh:

It, it was okay, cool.

Josh:

What can we take off of your plate?

Josh:

What do we need to do for you?

Josh:

Do you need time off whatever it is, we have your back.

Josh:

And I got there because I didn't know what the right thing to do for

Josh:

a leader was, and I was searching the internet all over the place and

Josh:

there wasn't a ton of it, but there was like a LinkedIn learning sessions.

Josh:

That was like a three-part series.

Josh:

And I watched it and it was a woman who was going through something and

Josh:

she talked about, it was the night before a presentation that she was

Josh:

supposed to lead and something bad happened and she didn't know what to

Josh:

do, but she knew she couldn't do it.

Josh:

So she reached out to her team and said, Hey, here's what's going on.

Josh:

And they instantly were like, okay, we've got you.

Josh:

So, and so is going to do this.

Josh:

You do what you need to do and you'll do that.

Josh:

So the, the response from.

Josh:

People I've shared it with has been amazingly supportive.

Josh:

And that's one thing just like Bob said that I would really encourage you to do.

Josh:

I started with a small trusted.

Josh:

Then I later expanded to a slightly larger trusted group.

Josh:

Yep.

Josh:

Then the last step to me was informing all of my direct reports.

Josh:

So all of the people that work directly with me that I shared with

Josh:

them, Hey, this is what's going on.

Josh:

If you've wondered why Josh has been a little bit off over the summer,

Josh:

here's why I'm still working through.

Josh:

I'm not there, but I it's important for me that you all know.

Josh:

Yeah.

Josh:

And the same response.

Bob:

Yeah.

Bob:

It's it goes back to, I think one of the, you know, we've talked about it a

Bob:

lot in the Medicare, so I'm asking for.

Bob:

And people struggle to ask for help.

Bob:

And then normally when you do ask for help, it's usually well-received right.

Bob:

Like you get help.

Bob:

It's like, you're, you're showing vulnerability, you're showing your

Bob:

genuineness and things like that.

Bob:

It doesn't make it easy, particularly when it's a personal challenge.

Bob:

It doesn't make it easy to ask for help.

Bob:

But if you it's that same hurdle that you have to jump, I think, and,

Bob:

and the first one is your truck.

Bob:

So you had a small group, so you were trying it.

Bob:

If they wouldn't have responded really well, you probably

Bob:

wouldn't have gone out to work.

Bob:

Right.

Bob:

But normally what human beings do, not business colleagues, but human beings.

Bob:

Yeah.

Bob:

Is they usually have a heart and they usually like surround you.

Bob:

They usually care for you.

Bob:

So you, I think that's the typical response that you should

Bob:

expect that kind of response.

Josh:

Right?

Josh:

Well, and like the, the, I, I wasn't concerned about it because

Josh:

the relationship I've built with my boss, but it was, it could

Josh:

have been a scary situation.

Josh:

It was during review time.

Josh:

And here I am telling my boss like, Hey, that thing you hired me to do, and her

Josh:

paying me to do, I can't get it all done.

Josh:

And I'm not sure when I'll be able to be back to my normal self.

Josh:

I'm going to try and get there as fast as I can.

Josh:

I can't make it happen, you know?

Josh:

So, so depending on the relationship you have with who you report to, I understand

Josh:

that can be a terribly scary moment.

Bob:

You know what I mean?

Bob:

I'm not going to disagree with you, but you don't, you test your relationship.

Bob:

You don't know what your relationship is until you test it.

Bob:

You think it's something I, what I'm saying is adversity is the

Bob:

true test of a relationship, right?

Bob:

And so it's, you may like a medication, or you may think you have

Bob:

a crappy relationship with your boss that say, and something comes up.

Bob:

I would encourage you to talk to your boss.

Bob:

Right?

Bob:

You have to, it means it's a good idea.

Bob:

Anyway, they're going to know something is different and.

Bob:

Don't predetermine how they're going to, they could act like an ass or

Bob:

they might absolutely surprise you.

Bob:

This, my experience is, you know, the folks that I think may not respond

Bob:

well because their business and they're towing the line, they actually, in

Bob:

adversity, they respond and they show you their heart and they're there for you.

Bob:

So I, what I'm trying to say is I wouldn't have preconceived notions.

Bob:

Yes.

Bob:

You can look at your relationship.

Bob:

But extend yourself, take a risk and be prepared to be surprised.

Bob:

I've been surprised by people, right?

Bob:

I thought, I didn't think they would be cruel, but I didn't think

Bob:

they would be very supportive.

Bob:

Sometimes the people that I didn't expect it from were the most supportive folks,

Bob:

so, and, and just be prepared for that.

Bob:

So it's a test of your relationships and you may have a relationship that

Bob:

you think is a slam dunk and it may not.

Bob:

And you're now learning.

Bob:

You're like, you know, it may not be bad, but was like, well, crap, they're

Bob:

not being as supportive as I thought.

Bob:

Well, you've now realize more about that relationship, right?

Bob:

Yep.

Bob:

So exactly.

Bob:

Where else do you want to go?

Josh:

One of the things that, so there's two things that I've wrestled.

Josh:

Throughout this process.

Josh:

Number one, getting to a point where I could accept that there's a, there's a

Josh:

limit on what I can realistically give.

Josh:

Given the situation.

Josh:

I've always been a person that puts things and teams on my back

Josh:

and says, we're going to do this.

Josh:

we had just been acquired by.

Josh:

PE firm out of Europe and there was all of this stuff happening

Josh:

and there are all these big events going on throughout the summer.

Josh:

And one of the first things that my boss said, because he knows

Josh:

me is like, don't feel like you have to put this all on your back.

Josh:

Like, I know that's how you work and that's why I hired you, but it's okay

Josh:

for you not to have to carry the load.

Josh:

We'll figure.

Josh:

This out, we'll figure out the right way to get through all of this.

Josh:

But he, even though I had gotten to the point where I, where I was comfortable

Josh:

saying that and having him recognize that and let me know from his side

Josh:

that, that like, Hey, we're good.

Josh:

That was another weight off of my shoulders.

Josh:

oh.

Josh:

And we were doing a ton of like hiring and all these things.

Josh:

Right?

Josh:

So all those things that I care about deeply, I had to be okay

Josh:

for the first time in my career.

Josh:

Saying I can't do it all.

Josh:

And that was really hard.

Josh:

So you, whoever out there is struggling, you're going to have to find a way to get

Josh:

yourself to a point where you can accept that reality and just let go, because

Josh:

otherwise you're going to crush yourself.

Bob:

Why don't?

Bob:

I mean, I agree.

Bob:

I, I remember when I was in the throws of my divorce and

Bob:

this was decades ago, right?

Bob:

I, I couldn't focus.

Bob:

You said focus earlier.

Bob:

I'd be in meetings.

Bob:

I mean, I just couldn't help.

Bob:

It.

Bob:

Wasn't just the raw work.

Bob:

It was the raw work, right?

Bob:

Yeah.

Bob:

The amount of people, discussions, meetings, it was that the thing that, you

Bob:

know, I struggled with the most probably was I couldn't keep my brain on track.

Bob:

I couldn't keep my, you know, I'd be in the middle of a critical customer meeting

Bob:

and I just would get sad about my kid.

Bob:

I mean, when we were getting divorced, my kids were little and then they

Bob:

moved away for a while and there was all this stuff going on and it.

Bob:

he just ripped my heart out, like every day.

Bob:

So I was like, I was worried about stuff.

Bob:

So I couldn't, my focus was incredibly and I'm a pretty focused guy and I just

Bob:

couldn't focus on things, consistently.

Bob:

And I would just, I would find that my mind would be wondering, like,

Bob:

Which would, and that was hard for me.

Bob:

So it's the raw work, but it's also, I think the focus and giving yourself

Bob:

the grace to know that you're, I'm just, I'm going to be less focused.

Bob:

Yeah.

Bob:

so, so I would say both things it's it's hours or work or projects.

Bob:

But realize that whatever you're doing, I, and I'm looking for you to either

Bob:

confirm or die, but even let's say I'm even working 10, you know, 10 minutes

Bob:

out of every 60 minutes, even then I might only be focusing five minutes

Bob:

because I'm like, my mind is elsewhere.

Bob:

And that changes over time.

Bob:

Yeah.

Bob:

But it's like, if you had a parent that was ill, it's not just, you know,

Bob:

marriage, it's like illnesses, severe illnesses and things, things that

Bob:

just distract you because your heart is touching your heart on your heart.

Josh:

Yeah.

Josh:

I, I, it was a weird balancing act for me because I found.

Josh:

Solace and the distraction that worked provided, I would agree with that.

Josh:

So it, so it wasn't that I couldn't work.

Josh:

I actually wanted to work because it would be a useful distraction for

Josh:

my brain to be able to put all of my mental struggles off to the side.

Josh:

Right.

Josh:

For a while.

Josh:

And just like not think about that.

Josh:

And that gave me a breather.

Josh:

And I could focus on something, but my capability to focus, like I had that for

Josh:

the duration was really where I struggled.

Josh:

And, you know, there were times where I couldn't keep that challenge out

Josh:

of my brain and I just would like get up and walk away and have to go

Josh:

on a walk and do all those things.

Josh:

so that, that, it was this weird balancing act of enough work.

Josh:

But I knew that too much work just wasn't possible and just get comfortable

Bob:

with that.

Bob:

I remember back then I write my wife packed up and left or something with the

Bob:

kids once and it was over the holidays and we were down for two weeks or something.

Bob:

And as you were talking, so work, you know, you, you, you

Bob:

can't maybe fully be yourself.

Bob:

But work is a safety place to having something to do.

Bob:

Like, what I'm talking about is I had nothing to do.

Bob:

So going through that and like being by yourself, I remember like being in a

Bob:

room by myself, he was freaking terrible.

Bob:

Right.

Bob:

Like, and I, I was just not doing well with that.

Bob:

So work work is something it's that it's sort of a mixed bag.

Bob:

You want to be there, but then, you know, you're just not going to

Josh:

beat yourself.

Josh:

Right?

Josh:

Yeah.

Josh:

The second thing that I had to get comfortable with was getting help

Josh:

outside of work and seeing a therapist.

Josh:

And I had never done that before.

Josh:

So I had to get over a little bit of a hurdle of whatever stigma

Josh:

had in my brain that prevented me from ever going and getting help.

Josh:

But getting that help, got me into a spot where.

Josh:

My therapist was able to help me and get to a point where she said,

Josh:

okay, you're really struggling.

Josh:

You're not going to be able to make progress until we get you

Josh:

some support with some medicine to where we can help you focus on

Josh:

the things that you need to focus.

Josh:

So she was like, we can talk for hours and hours and hours, but you're not in

Josh:

a mental state to where you can write.

Josh:

Make progress.

Josh:

So working through that and talking to my doctor about everything that's

Josh:

going on, amazingly supportive group, just like I'm sure everybody's doctor

Josh:

is because doctors care, you know, like that's what they want to do.

Josh:

And so getting over that and accepting that this is the only

Josh:

way for me to get out of this.

Josh:

Medical support in not only the mental side, but also the physical side of

Josh:

just getting that help and then getting medicines in place that could help me

Josh:

get closer to who I want to be and how.

Josh:

Yeah, operate.

Josh:

That was something that I never thought I would do, but doing it was a game changer

Josh:

because then I finally was able to start making progress in all of the directions.

Josh:

Yeah.

Josh:

Both at work and at home and all of the other things.

Bob:

I mean, I'm for what it's worth, I'm proud of you for doing that.

Bob:

I didn't, I took the old, and I'm not proud of this, or I'm not unplowed

Bob:

of it, but, you know, I had the.

Bob:

I was getting divorced.

Bob:

What, in the eighties or something, I guess, late eighties.

Bob:

And I grew up in the, you know, I'm a boomer and men.

Bob:

I grew up in that era and my dad, you know, men don't show

Bob:

weakness, men don't cry and stuff.

Bob:

So I sort of sucked it up where I tried to suck it up and it was, it was awful.

Bob:

So I'm glad you did that.

Bob:

And it goes back to asking for help, like getting help in different directions.

Bob:

Right.

Bob:

And yeah.

Bob:

And just looking at that as normal, right?

Josh:

Yeah.

Josh:

It's 100% a different time in the world where mental illness and

Josh:

challenges are more at the forefront.

Bob:

Gotcha.

Bob:

Yeah.

Bob:

I'm actually saying, thank God.

Bob:

It's the right.

Bob:

We're in the right direction.

Bob:

The direction wasn't right for me.

Bob:

I mean, I've come out of the curve.

Bob:

Yeah.

Bob:

But, but it was much more painful in the curve than it, than it needed to be.

Bob:

For me.

Bob:

So, so yeah.

Josh:

Yeah.

Josh:

So, so if you're struggling, if sleep is a challenge that becomes

Josh:

like a snowball thing where it just gets worse and worse and worse.

Josh:

Or anxiety, depression, all of those things get help from your doctor,

Josh:

from a therapist from whoever's out there that can help, but don't wait.

Josh:

Don't like, just get help.

Josh:

I've lived through that in the past few months, and that

Josh:

was a game changer for me.

Josh:

Just to be able to move forward, but also in getting comfortable with

Josh:

asking for more help, because I was raised in that time when you were

Josh:

going through that, where that was like, you know, a lot of my family.

Josh:

Just doesn't go to the doctor.

Josh:

Yeah.

Josh:

You know, and so that's not a thing, but then I married a person

Josh:

who was always going to the doctor and that was the first thing.

Josh:

So I ended up finding my way of like, oh, this doctor stuff is really helpful.

Josh:

We should, I

Bob:

should do more of this.

Bob:

Yeah.

Bob:

Well, as you were talking about like counseling and stuff, the other thing

Bob:

I've learned in, in my coaching is Nora in the coaching was there's

Bob:

this thing called normalization.

Bob:

When you're going through something, I think you feel like it's just me, right?

Bob:

Like you're not, but it's you don't, you feel ostracized or

Bob:

you feel like it's just you or everyone else has happier something.

Bob:

And I remember coach.

Bob:

And with counseling, they have a perspective of it's no, I mean,

Bob:

you're going through a tough time, but what what's happening too is normal.

Bob:

You are not weird.

Bob:

You are not weak.

Bob:

We're not this, this is this.

Bob:

Yeah.

Bob:

This is a really hard thing.

Bob:

Yeah.

Bob:

And, and that notion of normalization, I think can help, like, like,

Bob:

and you can't normalize yourself.

Bob:

You need someone to normalize you with you or whatever, right.

Bob:

Someone who is in a position of expertise, it really helps to have

Bob:

someone walk you through that.

Bob:

I'm sure you went through that phase.

Bob:

Like yes, you're in pain.

Bob:

It's okay.

Bob:

That's what that's, what's going on.

Bob:

That's a normal part of this process that you're going

Bob:

through.

Josh:

Yeah.

Josh:

I had no concept of how to navigate out of that.

Josh:

I felt like I was lost in deep dark woods with no anything.

Josh:

And I was just like wandering the earth.

Josh:

And I got to a point where I realized I'm not going to be able to get out of

Josh:

here unless I get professional help by people that have that do this every day.

Josh:

And so that started enabling me to make the progress to where I've

Josh:

walked out of those woods and I have a path and all those things.

Josh:

So that's a, that's a, that's a tough spot that anybody that's out there.

Josh:

You know, I just beg you to ask for help from friends, family, doctors,

Bob:

and the challenges.

Bob:

And I think it's right.

Bob:

I, although I knew something was off with Josh, it's like the

Bob:

quintessential if, if someone, if a woman has gained weight, you never

Bob:

ever want to ask her if she's pregnant.

Bob:

Right.

Bob:

It's I'm joking a little bit, right?

Bob:

Yeah.

Bob:

It's the burden is on her to tell you it was a good step in, even though I,

Bob:

I knew something was off with Josh.

Bob:

I don't think other people can ask you.

Bob:

You have to disclose it's actually really bad.

Bob:

Like if you're in a scrum master role or a coaching role or a leadership role

Bob:

for you to, you know, ask someone if they're pregnant, again, I'm back to that

Bob:

euphemism or Josh you're off your game.

Bob:

What's going on.

Bob:

It just don't do that.

Bob:

Because you don't know what the context is.

Bob:

I, I, so I think the advice I'm trying to say is we always, you always have to.

Bob:

Like I waited.

Bob:

Right.

Bob:

I didn't wonder about it that much, but I knew something was going on.

Bob:

Right.

Bob:

But he didn't, you know, but, but then once Josh disclosed,

Bob:

then you get an open door.

Bob:

So that's the trigger.

Bob:

So if you're, if you're in something like this, don't expect other people,

Bob:

you have to step up to disclose Most of the people shouldn't be poking and

Bob:

prodding you and for personal details.

Bob:

The other thing is you decide how much you expose to other people.

Bob:

John Josh was it's your decision, not their decision.

Bob:

So, you know, he talked about having a trusted small group.

Bob:

You determine who's trusted.

Bob:

You determine the relationships, you determine how much you disclose.

Bob:

I always lean toward.

Bob:

I never disclosed everything.

Bob:

It was not anyone else's business.

Bob:

It wasn't helpful.

Bob:

I disclosed enough so people could know what was going on.

Bob:

And I would change that depending on the relationships.

Bob:

I'm just talking about the, the dynamics of discovery.

Bob:

Yeah.

Bob:

It's important.

Bob:

So, so it's important if you're running through any issue, you know, family

Bob:

issue, life issue health issues.

Bob:

You have to, you have to be the one to initiate.

Bob:

and then hopefully, gosh, I hope and pray that people respond

Josh:

the way you deserve.

Josh:

Yeah.

Josh:

And you know, some of the things I struggled with in talking

Josh:

to people, especially people I cared about deeply, right?

Josh:

Like, like Bob is like, man, I don't want to put my problems on Bob.

Josh:

Like that's not, I didn't, it was hard because I felt like,

Josh:

Hey, here's something heavy.

Josh:

I'm carrying here's some of the weight.

Josh:

Congrats, Bob, you know, that's a, that's a difficult thing, but ultimately, as

Josh:

Bob has talked about people that care and people with heart are happy is

Josh:

probably the wrong word, but willing to help in any way that they can

Bob:

actually, I think I'll disclose to you.

Bob:

It's happy.

Bob:

I'm so at the risk of sounding mushy, Ooh, I care about you.

Bob:

What I care about you a lot.

Bob:

Right.

Bob:

And so I'll do anything in my power to help you.

Bob:

Cause I care about you.

Bob:

and, and people have different levels of caring.

Bob:

So I'm getting misty-eyed here, Medi casters, but, but I'm, I'm being sincere.

Bob:

So it's I, and I'm not arguing.

Bob:

What, what Josh said is what happens.

Bob:

You, you consider it.

Bob:

I don't want to give the weight, all of that, but you have to decide.

Bob:

What I'm talking about as the other side, the people with the relationships, it's

Bob:

an honor to help other people and you feel that same way in your teams, right?

Bob:

It's just, when it's us, it's hard.

Bob:

We don't flip it very well.

Bob:

We don't flip.

Bob:

Yeah.

Bob:

Right.

Bob:

We give, but we it's harder to get, it's not just asking for help.

Bob:

It's that flip you'll give me help.

Bob:

Yeah.

Bob:

Right, right.

Bob:

You'll do anything.

Bob:

Right.

Bob:

But when it, when it comes to sort of asking me for help, it's it.

Bob:

We don't

Josh:

flip very well.

Josh:

Yeah.

Josh:

So.

Josh:

I am bringing up a things that I wrestled with in hope that we normalize a little

Josh:

bit, like, like Bob talked about that.

Josh:

If, if you're thinking about these things, yes.

Josh:

I thought about all of those same things and created hesitation within me.

Josh:

And then there are times where I got to the point of why didn't I do that sooner.

Josh:

So if you're wrestling with those, know that that's normal and just push

Josh:

through and get help because it, it has been consistently better after I had.

Bob:

The other thing, I think I wanna see how you're we're part of helping.

Bob:

We're like you become a better, so giving and receiving, right.

Bob:

It's it.

Bob:

I think it makes it's gonna make you better.

Bob:

So, so the next time someone comes to you with a personal issue, it's not

Bob:

that you're going to tell them your story, but it's going to make you

Bob:

even better than you would have been.

Bob:

Yeah.

Bob:

Do you know what I'm saying?

Bob:

More understanding, more empathetic without a doubt, right?

Bob:

It's part of it's part of our life journey.

Bob:

If life was full of like, you know, unicorns and fricking daisies, that'd be

Bob:

great and money falling from heaven and stuff, but it's not there's adversity.

Bob:

There's things going on, but the human condition of good people helping each

Bob:

other out is what gets us through that.

Bob:

And so the adversity you can come out of adversity.

Bob:

I know this don't.

Bob:

Downplaying what you're going through, but you can come out of this and not

Bob:

only can, we can all be better, like you're going to, you're going to be a

Bob:

better, and you're an outstanding leader.

Bob:

You're going to be a more empathetic leader after this.

Bob:

Yeah.

Bob:

If someone comes to you you may have better radar senses going on, et cetera.

Bob:

And, and, and don't ignore that.

Bob:

I mean, that's, that's part of how we get better in the relationship side of it.

Bob:

Yeah.

Bob:

I

Josh:

have replayed a few things in the past couple of years.

Josh:

Happened to team members that I now am embarrassed with how I reacted

Josh:

and it, it you're 100%, right.

Josh:

It, if that happened now versus then my reaction would be different.

Josh:

And I love the people on my team and I support them with everything I can, but

Josh:

somebody was going through something similar to what I'm going through.

Josh:

I think I could have done better and that hurts me, but also it

Josh:

gives me fire so that when that happens again, I will do better.

Josh:

I will be more effective.

Josh:

The other thing that was interesting and my wife brought, brought this up

Josh:

is that you basically should never.

Josh:

Say to someone, Hey, you've lost weight or gained weight.

Josh:

You look great because you don't know what the reason behind that

Josh:

weight loss correctly is because.

Josh:

I dropped 20 pounds in like a week and a half.

Josh:

And it would have been natural and normal for people to someone of my

Josh:

size saying, man, you lost some weight.

Josh:

You look great, all of that stuff.

Josh:

And it's like, well, thanks.

Josh:

You know, I'm, I'm like losing my mind here, you know, which is why I can't eat.

Josh:

So, but so things like that, that I've learned that helped me be number

Josh:

one, a better human, but also a better leader and teammate along the way.

Bob:

I, I think we are.

Bob:

We did we explored where she went to explore her.

Bob:

Yeah, I think so.

Bob:

Okay.

Bob:

I want to take a moment.

Bob:

so this was hard.

Bob:

Yeah.

Bob:

You're not your personality.

Bob:

Isn't one, but medic casters.

Bob:

I want to apply it.

Bob:

I want you to apply Josh for the courage for him to share

Bob:

what he shared with you all.

Bob:

And it's not about Josh.

Bob:

It's about you.

Bob:

It's about learning.

Bob:

So I just, I just want to thank you for the courage.

Bob:

I honor your courage.

Bob:

That's all I wanted to say.

Bob:

And medic casters.

Bob:

I want you to take this.

Bob:

We didn't, I don't think we mentioned agile at all, so, but this was

Bob:

probably one of the most important medic casts we've ever done.

Bob:

So I want you to take it with that grain of salt and consider it

Bob:

and, and think of see how it sees.

Bob:

Touches your heart.

Bob:

So from beautiful downtown Cary, North Carolina, I'm Bob Galen, and I'm Josh

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Josh Anderson

Josh Anderson is a seasoned software professional with a passion for agile methodologies and continuous improvement. As one of the hosts of The Meta-Cast podcast, Josh brings his wealth of experience and expertise to the table. With a knack for practical advice and a penchant for engaging storytelling, Josh captivates listeners with his insights on agile methodology, team dynamics, and software development best practices. His infectious enthusiasm and dedication to helping others succeed make him a valuable resource for aspiring software professionals.
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Bob Galen

Bob Galen is a recognized industry leader and an authority on agile practices and software architecture. With years of hands-on experience, Bob brings a wealth of knowledge and expertise to The Meta-Cast podcast. As a co-host, he delves into topics ranging from agile fluency to organizational transformations, providing listeners with invaluable insights and strategies. Bob's charismatic and humorous style, combined with his ability to simplify complex concepts, makes him a fan-favorite among software professionals seeking guidance on navigating the challenges of agile development. His passion for continuous learning and his dedication to helping teams succeed shine through in each episode of the podcast.

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Lisa $10
Thank you both for sharing all your insight. It's been extremely valuable to me.