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210 - What We Wish We Knew - Meta-Cast
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Episode 210

210 - What We Wish We Knew

We're old. That means you should totally take advantage of all of our mistakes! Bob and Josh share a few things they sure wish they knew at earlier points in their career. Hopefully, one of these topics touches something you are struggling with and helps you get through a bit easier than we did!

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Transcript
Josh:

And I carried it last time,

Bob:

you know, you know what I don't know about carrying it,

Bob:

but I felt like the last episode you probably had the most space.

Bob:

Yeah.

Bob:

Yeah.

Bob:

And it felt good to be did it, but then you just burst it right

Bob:

then just that it felt good.

Bob:

It felt right until you just opened your mouth and just blew it

Bob:

Bob.

Bob:

Josh, do you know what I wish I knew what

Josh:

I wish I knew how to pick a podcast partner 12 years ago.

Josh:

Oh

Bob:

yeah.

Bob:

Is that, is this the, is this the reflection episode,

Bob:

Josh, where we reflect back?

Bob:

Yeah, I guess, so maybe, maybe sort of get a little bit misty-eyed

Bob:

about mistakes that we've made.

Bob:

What do you think?

Bob:

Yeah.

Bob:

All right.

Bob:

So tell me, tell me more about that.

Josh:

Oh, you more about that?

Josh:

Well, number one, we should have done a couple of trial

Josh:

episodes and understood the word.

Josh:

Count the word.

Josh:

That was there.

Josh:

Um, I probably would have practiced more in learning how to interject myself

Josh:

into a soliloquy that was happening.

Josh:

Yeah, big word.

Josh:

And I think if I knew those, if I was able to tackle that, I think we wouldn't

Josh:

have landed where we are, where it's a surprise when people hear Josh's name,

Josh:

they're like, oh, it's a metal cast with

Bob:

Bob.

Bob:

And Josh.

Bob:

Exactly.

Bob:

And Josh, you know, I'm just kidding.

Bob:

I just want, I've always reflected on though.

Bob:

What gets the value of the discourse?

Bob:

I think it's sort of the value of the IVs without a doubt.

Bob:

You know what I

Josh:

mean?

Josh:

I know, but we have this running joke we have

Bob:

to make, it's just jabbing at you.

Bob:

Don't accept.

Bob:

That was a jab.

Bob:

Fine, fine.

Bob:

Get feisty.

Bob:

Alright, great.

Bob:

You're laying back in your, in your banana shirt.

Bob:

That

Josh:

was way louder.

Josh:

Sorry, everybody.

Josh:

I just slapped the arm of my chair was wait,

Bob:

sorry.

Bob:

You know, I don't regret.

Bob:

No, I don't either.

Bob:

I, I don't re what do I get?

Bob:

Here's things that I wanted.

Bob:

Let's bounce the ball back and forth.

Bob:

So what do you have so many casters?

Bob:

This, the theme of this episode is I wish we knew.

Bob:

I wish I, I wish I knew this back then, whatever this is.

Bob:

So

Josh:

go ahead.

Josh:

When I first started hiring, I was a computer science only person.

Josh:

I had zero.

Josh:

Creativity or outside of the box thinking and who would be a good

Josh:

developer if your resume didn't have computer science on it discard.

Josh:

And over the years, some of the more higher performing successful just teams I

Josh:

liked or made up of a majority of people.

Josh:

That either didn't go to school or had a degree in something wildly

Josh:

different than computer science.

Josh:

So over the years I've learned that through just like stepping

Josh:

in things and moving roles.

Josh:

And now there's a team of people that I didn't hire and

Josh:

I didn't look at their resumes.

Josh:

I just like, wow, you're really good.

Josh:

And then it comes up later like, oh, holy crap.

Josh:

So you've wow.

Josh:

That's amazing.

Josh:

So there were so many people that I.

Josh:

Could have added to the products we built to improving my career throughout the

Josh:

way that I just shut out like a dumb,

Bob:

well in diversity.

Bob:

Right?

Bob:

And I'm not, there's, there's academic diversity, but there's

Bob:

all kinds of aspects to diversity.

Bob:

And I was doing the same.

Bob:

I mean, it wasn't intentional.

Bob:

It was sort of naive or it was, you know, sometimes you, you just, that's all, you

Bob:

know, but, I used to be like, not just university, but specific universities.

Bob:

I remember when I moved down here, we identified a shortlist for our recruiters.

Bob:

Like Clemson was an engineering university, Georgia tech, Virginia tech.

Bob:

So we were, we, it wasn't just.

Bob:

It was computer science from these universities.

Bob:

And I did some of that up north too when I was in Connecticut.

Bob:

when did I change?

Bob:

Probably at Bellin.

Bob:

How after a few years down here now in my defense, we were doing hard and bad.

Bob:

So embedded systems development.

Bob:

So, so having an engineering background probably harder to pick up, it's hard.

Bob:

You don't pick that up, you know, in a bootcamp at a community college

Bob:

or something, but still I just left.

Bob:

I left all kinds of great people.

Bob:

Oh on the, just, I, I let the, I pass them by and, and I got it.

Bob:

It's not even just that it's the results that I got.

Bob:

We were very predictable in our results in those teams.

Bob:

Right.

Bob:

I mean, they weren't bad teams, but just not a lot of variation,

Bob:

not, not a lot of ideation, not a lot of creativity outside of the.

Bob:

In those teams.

Bob:

So yeah, I reflect that as well.

Bob:

I'm trying to think of, I wish I'd known how hard agile is to get.

Bob:

Right, right.

Bob:

I don't think it had changed anything.

Bob:

Well, no, I don't, I don't know what it would have changed something, but

Bob:

I just wish I had known early on.

Bob:

I think in the early days of my agile career, I looked at it as like a

Bob:

method and it was the history, like a unified process and things like

Bob:

that, like wrap the rational unified process and other SDLC came along

Bob:

and they were processed definitions.

Bob:

And I wish I would have known how culturally.

Bob:

Key and how organizationally key agile success was like,

Bob:

like right from the get-go.

Bob:

I did not get it.

Bob:

I probably wasted.

Bob:

I'm not wasted, but I probably spent, you know, the first four or five,

Bob:

maybe even up to eight years thinking agile was a process thing mostly.

Bob:

Right.

Bob:

I do.

Bob:

I disrupted some roles, for example, like project management roles or testers in,

Bob:

in development teams and things like that.

Bob:

But I didn't, I didn't get it.

Bob:

I wish I would've gotten it sooner.

Bob:

I think it was.

Bob:

I think it would have increased the success of some of those early adoptions.

Bob:

And I was a part of, yeah, I, I,

Josh:

I've been down a similar path where I spun my wheels a lot

Josh:

and I was very stubborn about, and it's like, this is going to work.

Josh:

And I just tried to make it work by the process, not the culture.

Josh:

And I learned through mistakes.

Josh:

Yeah.

Josh:

I needed to get better at addressing the culture from the top down and

Josh:

get all of the leaders on board and helping lead it before it was actually

Josh:

going to work because it was just like, oh yeah, Josh and the devs are

Josh:

doing this agile thing, but the rest of the company, it was very waterfall.

Josh:

And so that put a really low ceiling on the success that we can have.

Josh:

And I, you know, and I.

Josh:

Terra data is perfect example, like you saw how that was going to end.

Josh:

You had more experience, you were like, yes, this is not going to work I'm out.

Josh:

And I hung around for a couple of years, at least just banging my head

Josh:

against that wall, trying to turn into something that it just wasn't going to be.

Bob:

That's the other thing I wish I wish I would have been more courageous.

Bob:

I mean, again, I had kids growing up, so, so there was real world.

Bob:

Reasons, but like with the great resignation now

Bob:

people are boldly going out.

Bob:

You hear about more courage now, right.

Bob:

I'm not doing what I want to do.

Bob:

I'm going to pivot.

Bob:

Right.

Bob:

You talk about that sometimes like startups and things like that.

Bob:

I've got limited time.

Bob:

I wish I would have had more courage early on to take, to take more risks.

Bob:

Maybe it's confidence or courage or something to do that.

Bob:

I

Josh:

agree completely.

Josh:

And I think part of that is the culture that we were brought up.

Josh:

And like, I, I realized the drivers that led to me choosing my career path

Josh:

and it was very tied to the area that I grew up in the norms around that.

Josh:

And so as I've learned that, and as I moved into Raleigh, like I started

Josh:

working with the city and you know, here in Raleigh, success is usually

Josh:

defined as you go to one of the big three schools, you get a job and, you know,

Josh:

you know, you bounce around a little bit and that's fine, but like you do that.

Josh:

There's not enough support for failure.

Josh:

We're encouraging people to try different things.

Josh:

You know, that's not the norm here, whereas in some other parts

Josh:

of the country that's encouraged.

Josh:

Yeah.

Josh:

So that's a thing that I've always tried to work on here is encouraging that more

Josh:

often because there were societal norms that I allowed to hold me back, but I

Josh:

wish I would have like shed those sooner.

Bob:

You mentioned something earlier, you didn't say it this

Bob:

way, but like sudden costs thinking.

Bob:

So I've been watching this, rich Chariton has a video.

Bob:

He's the Menlo innovations CEO.

Bob:

And he talks about one of the major factors in slowing you down or

Bob:

fear or whatever is you get stuck on what, you know, like trying new

Bob:

things, because you're stuck with what you, what you've sunk into it.

Bob:

And I I'm very some costs.

Bob:

influenced, right.

Bob:

I've always been, it goes back to my background.

Bob:

I'm very conservative, you know, farm conservative, you know, you're

Bob:

going to, you're going to beat it.

Bob:

You're going to beat it into submission rather than right.

Bob:

Rather than just move and not get stuck in things.

Bob:

So I wish I would have let go.

Bob:

There's not a specific sunk cost example.

Bob:

I could mind for them, but it's being.

Bob:

Being less sensitive to that.

Bob:

Right.

Bob:

Being, yeah, it's a factor, but being very lightweight with some costs,

Bob:

I think that would have changed the trajectory of my trajectory of some of

Bob:

the, the companies that I was a part of, if not getting stuck in that thing.

Bob:

Yeah.

Bob:

Okay.

Bob:

So I won't hit the

Josh:

pause button for all the listeners out there.

Josh:

If you haven't been thinking about the things we've been

Josh:

talking about and evaluating.

Josh:

How you're doing with those rewind and start over, make sure you're,

Josh:

you're listening to these are, these are stories of mistakes that we made,

Josh:

but we are going to do with them.

Josh:

Can you look at, oh, I do that same thing.

Josh:

I like Bob.

Josh:

I do the exact same thing.

Josh:

And then how do you start to drive change?

Josh:

So don't passively listen, actively, listen here.

Josh:

The next thing for me is I wish I had.

Josh:

More training with firing people than I did with hiring people.

Josh:

The amount of effort that I put in personally and other people put into

Josh:

helping me hire the right people, just absolutely dwarfed the training.

Josh:

I basically got no training for how to let someone go.

Josh:

And the first few I fumbled.

Josh:

A complete doofus and I look back and I feel terrible because I

Josh:

just mishandled it with someone's life and all of those things.

Josh:

And I did it poorly.

Josh:

So I've really invested in myself in trying to get better at that because

Josh:

you're not going to get everything right.

Josh:

You're not going to get every hire.

Josh:

Perfect.

Bob:

I agree.

Bob:

I mean, I remember going, what was the name?

Bob:

Wavetec Wando and Goldman was a telecommunications instrument

Bob:

company here in the triangle.

Bob:

There was a big tea.

Bob:

There's a lot of peripheral telecom companies and they were

Bob:

one of them like test instruments.

Bob:

And I worked there for awhile and the HR, I w I went to HR to try to put someone

Bob:

on a performance improvement plan.

Bob:

And, and the director of HR, didn't have a thing like that.

Bob:

So literally like the HR team didn't know how to fire somebody.

Bob:

And, and so I had to help.

Bob:

So I had some experience, but it's like indicative.

Bob:

It's not just you it's, it's like, that's not, I would call a skill or a competency

Bob:

that that's lacking in most organizations.

Bob:

And.

Bob:

Right.

Bob:

Like doing it with humanity, doing it with equity, doing it with patience, doing

Bob:

it with clear clarity of communication.

Bob:

Right.

Bob:

You know, just doggedly doing it, putting in the effort to do that.

Bob:

Just like you would in recruiting.

Bob:

Right.

Bob:

That's another missing a missing thing.

Bob:

What for me.

Bob:

do you have I'm thinking, do you have another one?

Bob:

Could you throw another one out?

Josh:

I've clearly made a lot more mistakes than Bob.

Josh:

It's not mistakes.

Bob:

I wish I would

Josh:

know in the yard time.

Josh:

One of the things where I have stubbed my toe the most in my career has

Josh:

been, I would interview for a roles.

Josh:

I would get accepted.

Josh:

About the leaders, they were selling exactly what I was buying

Josh:

and I was fired up and no one knows this better than my wife.

Josh:

Right.

Josh:

Cause she's been along all those rides and the number of times that I was

Josh:

disappointed as time progressed and that person wasn't really what I thought they

Josh:

were coming out of the hiring process.

Josh:

And that led me to leave.

Josh:

So I've worked really hard and the past five or six years.

Josh:

To learn how to interview the leaders at accompany, to understand who they

Josh:

really are and be more confident about the choices that I make.

Josh:

Okay.

Bob:

I hear that I do a lot of coaching now.

Bob:

You know that I do the leadership workshops and things, but I

Bob:

try to help the community.

Bob:

It's probably not probably it's the number one thing I hear is people making

Bob:

mistakes and they're making repeated mistakes going into the wrong company.

Bob:

And it's, it's a pervasive problem because it's really hard.

Bob:

It's actually, I think, quite challenging for anyone to interview for the culture,

Bob:

to cut through the bullshit, to cut through the facade and get to the real

Bob:

essence of a company like the glass store of a company or something like that.

Bob:

Then I think the one regret I have, and I still have it.

Bob:

I'm still working on it.

Bob:

I'm working on a blog post about.

Bob:

Is my humility and I think I'm too, and don't don't please don't

Bob:

harass me about it, but I I'm too.

Bob:

I'm too humble.

Bob:

And part of it is, imposter syndrome and it's been, it's been a problem for me from

Bob:

my youth, like growing up, I've never.

Bob:

I've never been ultra confident or ultra cocky or anything like that.

Bob:

And I wish I would have, I wish I would've seen my value even to this day.

Bob:

You know, when I, you know, you've talked to me about you

Bob:

don't, you don't charge enough.

Bob:

A guy was talking to me the other day, you know, I have this pattern

Bob:

sometimes of excusing my experience right on webinars and things like that.

Bob:

And, and he was like, he shook me and is like, you know, you don't

Bob:

undermine what you have to offer.

Bob:

Right.

Bob:

It devalues your experience.

Bob:

You have a lot of experience.

Bob:

And so I wish I would have stopped that shit earlier.

Bob:

I really, and I'm still.

Bob:

Going into that.

Bob:

But I, I think that's that undermine the trajectory of my career.

Bob:

I think you broke professionally as an employee, but also, outside as

Bob:

a consultant and things like that.

Bob:

And I'm not saying I should be cocky, but I think a lot of people are too humble.

Bob:

They're too.

Bob:

They're letting their imposter syndrome.

Bob:

affect them.

Bob:

Yeah.

Bob:

And, and seeing yourself, giving yourself a fair break, really sort of seeing

Bob:

yourself the way you are looking in the mirror effectively in a balanced way.

Bob:

You're

Josh:

Bob

Bob:

effin, Galen.

Bob:

And I don't feel like that.

Bob:

I know.

Bob:

Right.

Bob:

I

Josh:

honestly, everyone else does.

Bob:

And everyone else does, and I don't feel that way.

Bob:

And, and, actually being vulnerable now, that's, I've, that's hurting me.

Bob:

It's hurting me in many ways.

Bob:

And, and I just, and I'll never, I'll never be cocky.

Bob:

Right.

Bob:

Who's a cocky guy in, Craig Lara.

Bob:

The less guy is relatively cocky.

Bob:

Yeah.

Bob:

So I will never be a Craig alarm and or someone like that,

Bob:

but I, you need to step it up.

Bob:

You, you really need to like, look yourself in the mirror and

Bob:

accept yourself for like your strengths and things like that.

Bob:

The other weird thing about it, Josh is I'm good at I'm good at, I think

Bob:

I'm good at, giving, giving you.

Bob:

Yeah.

Bob:

See, I, I just can't, but I, I do that with you, right?

Bob:

Like I give you a mirror and I'll, if I'm talking to you, I will coach up your

Bob:

strengths, but I won't do it to myself.

Bob:

So I'll get, I'll show a mirror to other people, but I won't.

Bob:

So that's something I wish I not only knew it was self aware of it and I think I've

Bob:

been self-aware, but it's it's is really working hard to, to rebalance myself.

Josh:

You know, given last episode, I, as a friend would

Josh:

say, give therapy a try, right?

Josh:

Like if you think it was shaped by upbringing, like most things like

Josh:

this are, it might be helpful for you to work through that with an expert.

Josh:

And that might uncover the thing that then helps you.

Josh:

Push forward, you know?

Josh:

Cause I, you know, I can tell you I've I've been investing a lot there.

Josh:

Yeah.

Josh:

And it helps.

Josh:

So

Bob:

that's actually coaching has helped me in that I've I've because I'm in

Bob:

these coaching programs, I've connected to one-on-one coaches and the coaching

Bob:

has helped actually the coaching has, but therapy would equally probably.

Bob:

It's the same thing.

Bob:

It's that reflection.

Bob:

Right.

Bob:

And the other thing is doing something about it, right?

Bob:

Most people, you know, it's not just reflecting on it.

Bob:

Surfacing at board is your action plan.

Bob:

Like what are the small little things you can do to start

Bob:

shifting your frame for that?

Bob:

What else do I wish?

Bob:

I wish I would've known that management.

Bob:

I wish I had known that I was good at management.

Bob:

So it's going to be like a twofer, but I wish I would've known how hard it was.

Bob:

Like how challenged it's, it's almost, I wish I would've known

Bob:

the dichotomy of leadership, which is it's freaking hard to walk.

Bob:

We talk in the medic cast all about walking your talk.

Bob:

I don't think people under.

Bob:

Walking, your talk is fricking challenging right under, under, and

Bob:

you're not perfect, but you're, you're doing it under all circumstances.

Bob:

You walk your talk.

Bob:

I walk my talk.

Bob:

That's fricking hard.

Bob:

It's just challenging.

Bob:

It requires courage.

Bob:

It's it's whatever.

Bob:

But then it's worthwhile.

Bob:

I wish I had known how worthwhile it was, but how tough it was.

Bob:

I don't know.

Bob:

I might've changed the trajectory of my leadership career if I didn't know.

Bob:

Yeah.

Bob:

It's, it's almost like the humility thing.

Bob:

I don't know what I would have become, but, I may have gone into consulting

Bob:

earlier or something and skipped I, so, you know, we talk, you think.

Bob:

You know, like a Teradata, I cut out early, but there, there was a

Bob:

company where I was like, shrugging my forehead against the wall for 10 years.

Bob:

Do you know what I'm saying?

Bob:

Right.

Bob:

I could have cut that coulda got had until like three or four and saved

Bob:

myself a lot of like, you know, brain damage or something along the way.

Bob:

What do you got?

Bob:

Similar

Josh:

along the way and like almost the opposite of.

Josh:

Of where you're coming from in that I was overly confident that

Josh:

management was going to be easy and I jumped way too early into it.

Josh:

I jumped away too early into it for a couple of reasons.

Josh:

One, I was just not ready to give up coding.

Josh:

I still loved it.

Josh:

And I didn't realize that to do leadership.

Josh:

Well, you had to stop the other thing and I didn't want to, so that already was.

Josh:

Not only was I not like experienced at it yet.

Josh:

I didn't want to do that.

Josh:

Part of the job was I wanted to keep writing code.

Josh:

So there were a ton of mistakes I made early in the game where I,

Josh:

you know, I just fumbled things.

Josh:

I

Bob:

think when I, if I remember you talking about your story, you had a good

Bob:

mentor, but I think you went early, right?

Bob:

You went into leadership management early.

Bob:

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Bob:

And like my third job.

Bob:

Yeah.

Bob:

Yeah, there's no magic time, but it's, it's, it's not for the, so

Bob:

it's not for the faint of heart.

Bob:

It's one of the reasons why I'm getting pissed off lately

Bob:

about people slamming managers.

Bob:

Right.

Bob:

And I know there's tons and tons of bad leaders, bad managers in the

Bob:

planet earth, but dammit, you got to tip your hat to these people who are

Bob:

on the field of battle trying, right.

Bob:

Trying to make a difference.

Bob:

And folks, folks marginalized them in slam in the agile community.

Bob:

A lot of people just, just always are anti manager, right.

Bob:

It's just get rid of them and fire them.

Bob:

And I, they, it annoys me.

Bob:

I wish I would have known earlier how important.

Bob:

Like your, your languages your words matter how you show up matters.

Bob:

It's sort of like I thought, like in management it was, you know,

Bob:

the technical stuff or something.

Bob:

Like, I, I grew up as a developer or detecting to leading teams that way, but

Bob:

in soft skills, does it a disservice, but.

Bob:

I wish I had known, you know, to be careful in how you articulate

Bob:

things to be careful You know, in how people interpret it and D diverse

Bob:

communities and things like that.

Bob:

Our language is becoming now, nowadays it's incredibly important to be caught,

Bob:

not overly cautious, but careful, thoughtful intentional with your language.

Bob:

And I, I wasn't, I mean, it's not that I was bad, but I, I

Bob:

wasn't, I wasn't considerate of the crowd the way I should have.

Bob:

I became much more considerate of it, but there were probably probably 15

Bob:

years of leadership where I, I was, I was not really, I was hurting people.

Bob:

I was insulting people and not intending to do.

Bob:

But, but language, language matters.

Bob:

How you show up matters your body language, you know, like

Bob:

the nuance of leadership, the nuance of how you communicate.

Bob:

I think, I don't think I got that so much.

Bob:

She was like, here's a PowerPoint slide.

Bob:

Here's a goals.

Bob:

And you know, who's, here's an OKR, blah, blah, blah.

Bob:

Get it done.

Bob:

Go right.

Bob:

Like Newt Rockne kind of thing or something.

Bob:

That was my vision.

Bob:

That probably went back to the army.

Bob:

Oh yeah.

Bob:

Yeah.

Bob:

There's, I'm sure there was some military sort of influence there of

Bob:

how leaders like showed up there.

Bob:

but what are you guys?

Josh:

Yeah, I, I, I think it was spoiled in that aspect with

Josh:

the coaches I had in college.

Josh:

That was a key to who they were and who we were, and it was really

Josh:

kind of drilled into us, but.

Josh:

Along the way where I've struggled, where I did struggle.

Josh:

I don't do any more.

Josh:

Cause I've, I've learned my lesson was as we acquired or worked

Josh:

with, teams that were global.

Josh:

I, I didn't understand early enough that their culture is their culture

Josh:

and you cannot ask them to operate.

Josh:

Like we do on our culture.

Josh:

And so there were teams I had in Malaysia and China that I was trying

Josh:

to force them into working in the way we worked here in the U S and

Josh:

that's not, that's not fair to them.

Josh:

And then teams in Eastern Europe, same thing.

Josh:

Yeah.

Josh:

I tried to ask to work them the way that we do, and that's just not respectful.

Josh:

It's not realistic.

Josh:

So I, I fumbled a few things and had to learn and just.

Josh:

I accept and respect the cultures that were in place and understand that I

Josh:

needed to do a better job of tweaking, how we work with them and how we

Josh:

support them and what we ask of them, because that really was the problem.

Josh:

And everybody I worked with was doing their darndest, but it was asking them to

Josh:

jump over a mountain and it just wasn't.

Bob:

I think as you were talking, I was thinking the

Bob:

same thing in a different way.

Bob:

The same thing for me was, was change.

Bob:

I wish I would've known earlier that you can't change people.

Bob:

Right.

Bob:

You just can't right.

Bob:

And I thought I could write and I, and I worked hard to change it.

Bob:

I'm trying to think of when did I, when did that get through my hard head?

Bob:

Within the last five years, So I have, you know, 40 years of working

Bob:

or over 40 years twenty-five years of leadership 20 years of agile and

Bob:

only in the last five years probably have I, I mean, I S I might've said.

Bob:

But, but in my heart, like as a coach, I would go in and like, I'm Bob Galen.

Bob:

Right.

Bob:

I can change you.

Bob:

Right.

Bob:

so in my head, I was like, I can change it.

Bob:

Right.

Bob:

I just need to push the right buttons and figure out the

Bob:

right magic words or whatever.

Bob:

And I can, I can, I can make you do scrum or I can make you, right.

Bob:

If you're in Eastern Europe, I can make you love collaboration and kumbaya

Bob:

meetings with other developers and stuff.

Bob:

And, and it, it doesn't, it doesn't work.

Bob:

Yeah.

Bob:

Not directly, not in a direct way.

Bob:

And that's boy, I'll tell you the amount of like fire and brimstone and chaos.

Bob:

I created in my wake right along the way.

Bob:

And I mean, I did get, and I did affect people change.

Bob:

The problem is it wasn't sticky change?

Bob:

They, it was, they were changing.

Bob:

They were mirroring what was expected.

Bob:

I wasn't changing people.

Bob:

And you know, I think a lot of people still have that.

Bob:

I just did a calc class last week and it's one of those things that

Bob:

I talked to people about and from a leadership point of view, and

Bob:

almost everyone to a person is.

Bob:

Is asking questions, like, how do I, how do I get people to adopt scrum?

Bob:

Or how do I get people to do this?

Bob:

Or how do I get people to they're looking for this magical change elixir

Bob:

and I burst her bubble and I'm like, you can't, and you can see this like

Bob:

overarching sadness and all the, you know, and all the faces in zoom.

Bob:

Yeah.

Bob:

It's like, but what do I do?

Bob:

I'm like you don't.

Bob:

Yeah.

Bob:

Right.

Bob:

And so I think, I think that's an epiphany or a transition.

Bob:

But a lot of people should have not enough.

Bob:

People have

Josh:

it.

Josh:

This can sound very flippant.

Josh:

So know that I don't intend it this way, but I was talking with a group, you

Josh:

know, a couple of weeks ago and they were working through a team that was struggling

Josh:

and trying to figure out what to do.

Josh:

And just as we talk through.

Josh:

I kind of blurted out.

Josh:

So what we really need to do is figure out who we need to fire, right?

Josh:

Because like, there's, there's something that's not working.

Josh:

Right.

Josh:

And which, which piece of the puzzle is it.

Josh:

And let's identify that and that's clearly the issue.

Josh:

And then we need to replace that piece cause something's wrong with it.

Josh:

And so, you know, throwing around words like that, that's.

Josh:

Kind of heavyweight and to just say like, who do we need to fire?

Josh:

You know, like that sounds pretty jerky, but in reality, you have a

Josh:

bunch of unchangeable pieces and maybe the final piece for your puzzle

Josh:

belongs with a different puzzle.

Josh:

It doesn't mean it's a bad puzzle piece.

Josh:

It's just the wrong puzzle piece.

Josh:

And so then you have to switch it for both

Bob:

parties to be happy.

Bob:

Absolutely.

Bob:

Well, the realization that you can't change people.

Bob:

Right.

Bob:

They can change themselves.

Bob:

You can inspire them to change themselves, but I can't make someone do something.

Bob:

and I'm still working.

Bob:

I still have to remind myself of that.

Bob:

I've gotten so much better about that, but I wish I, I wish I would have

Bob:

maybe just, just, even for myself, the other thing with me is, you know,

Bob:

you get frustrated with yourself.

Bob:

It's like, I should have changed that either the other side or.

Bob:

Realizing you're not, you can't change.

Bob:

People is giving you the freedom to not being accountable for

Bob:

everything around you, right?

Bob:

Oh, I, I didn't change the culture the way it is.

Bob:

Well, no one could have changed.

Bob:

So culture, so it's a little freeing a little bit, right?

Bob:

It's a, it's a little, it's a little sort of treating yourself with some care.

Bob:

You have something else.

Josh:

Welcome to our diversity and inclusion minute where Josh is embarrassed

Josh:

because Bob is lapping him here.

Josh:

So I'm just going to zip my lip and allow

Bob:

Bob to have.

Bob:

So not really lapping, but a couple things, just did a calc class last week.

Bob:

And I was really, I do, like I studied the people I asked them to do pre-work

Bob:

and of 13 attendees and a captain at 12.

Bob:

So I keep it small.

Bob:

so it was 13 attendees and eight of them were women and I was.

Bob:

Yeah, that's exactly what I'm looking for.

Bob:

Um, and that's not totally intentional.

Bob:

I was lucky, but it's, I'm working at it and we also market absolutely

Bob:

why I provide discounts and stuff.

Bob:

Yeah.

Bob:

But, you know, sometimes I look up and it's a very sort of diverse from a racial

Bob:

point of view and I get very pleased.

Bob:

This one was, I was really any of that.

Bob:

You said it was a freaking awesome class.

Bob:

So this, you can see the diversity of leaders and, and these

Bob:

are what eight women leaders.

Bob:

So that was cool.

Bob:

what else?

Bob:

I picked up another mentee.

Bob:

So agile Alliance, I've been really pushing on the agile

Bob:

Alliance for people to join it.

Bob:

And, have you joined her?

Bob:

I have, I don't have a mentor.

Bob:

So, and then they have a program called Agilent color

Bob:

where you can go and volunteer.

Bob:

I have one minute.

Bob:

And he's, he's wonderful.

Bob:

He's in Peru.

Bob:

So just, I just like working with him, I like working with serious people.

Bob:

Right.

Bob:

Who you could just tell in the dialogue there, they're just yearning.

Bob:

I love to help people like that.

Bob:

Right.

Bob:

And then I have, I have another one signed up, that we're going to work together.

Bob:

So I've added a mentee.

Bob:

And then the third thing is one of the, attendees of the calc class

Bob:

is active in the Seattle women in.

Bob:

Group and she invited and I was talking about my daughter teaching the class.

Bob:

So she avoided, she invited Rhiannon and I to do like a father daughter,

Bob:

ask us anything about leadership.

Bob:

And I think that's kinda cool, but different perspectives.

Bob:

and we're going to do that.

Bob:

I think in January or something like that.

Bob:

So I, I keep trying to keep trying to do things.

Bob:

Just keep the ball, moving down.

Bob:

The what's the, give me the metaphor, Josh.

Bob:

I mean the court, the field, the field, the field, keep moving, keep

Bob:

matriculating the ball, the field.

Bob:

Okay.

Bob:

So

Josh:

remember right now in your diversity inclusion, thoughts, be more like.

Josh:

Josh was playing a little catch

Bob:

up, move, move the ball down the field.

Josh:

If you listen to last episode, you might understand

Josh:

why I've slowed down a bit, but that's going to get back on track.

Bob:

It's it's all good.

Bob:

But you know what, though?

Bob:

We have this diversity actually.

Bob:

Another person, the other woman I'm coaching.

Bob:

She, and she was apologizing.

Bob:

I don't listen to the Medicare as much, but I listened to one and you guys

Bob:

talk about diversity and it inspired me from a woman perspective cause I have

Bob:

imposter syndrome and it was really thankfully you guys talked about that.

Bob:

And so.

Bob:

Yeah, that's wonderful.

Bob:

The fact that we're doing this right.

Bob:

I agree.

Bob:

So you get credit for that too, right?

Bob:

Where we don't know, like we're throwing a rock, everyone, medic casters, just

Bob:

throw a rock in the pond and see what the ripples do back to the episode with that.

Bob:

It's what I do.

Josh:

You know, the, the funny thing that keeps bouncing around in my head

Josh:

is I feel like I should have learned.

Josh:

In high school with all my girlfriends that I tried to change.

Josh:

And like, it just didn't work.

Josh:

Like how did I walk out of high school with the relationships that I had

Josh:

thinking that I could change anybody

Bob:

that's true.

Bob:

Even marriages and stuff.

Bob:

Right?

Bob:

Yeah.

Bob:

People get.

Bob:

I mean, my w you know, if we have tongue-in-cheek Diane still, I'm

Bob:

like, honey, you ain't going to jail.

Bob:

Yeah.

Bob:

I'm pretty, I'm pretty solid where I'm at right now.

Bob:

but we, we try, I was gonna S I was gonna say something about, like, I wish

Bob:

I would've known how the frameworks, how bad the frameworks can be.

Bob:

I mean, I've discovered that over time, but it would have

Bob:

changed how I did things.

Bob:

If I, if I would've went scrum, when I first got exposed it, I

Bob:

mean, I've been doing scrum for a long time, you know, 20 plus years.

Bob:

So I've influenced people.

Bob:

It's not just I've been doing it.

Bob:

I've done it in companies.

Bob:

I've done it with my teams.

Bob:

I've done it as a co you know, I've done it to lots of organizations.

Bob:

I wish I would've known how unimportant.

Bob:

Some aspects of it are.

Bob:

And, and, and, you know, don't get caught up on it.

Bob:

And it's the same thing with Kanban.

Bob:

And it's the same thing with all of the scaling frameworks, just every

Bob:

framework, dev ops, all of the fricking frameworks and, and mindset things.

Bob:

I wish I would've known how little they mattered, how much

Bob:

mindset mattered, still matters.

Bob:

Right.

Bob:

Principal.

Bob:

Mindset getting to the essence of something.

Bob:

And, and I w I wish that could have changed how I was operating externally.

Bob:

I don't know if it would have changed how my writing is or something.

Bob:

I mean, the people were still there's brick walls out there, and I still

Bob:

throw stuff in brick walls all the time.

Bob:

Right.

Bob:

So I don't know if it would have changed the world or change.

Bob:

My writing or anything like that.

Bob:

But certainly for me personally, I think it would've, it would've

Bob:

gotten me on, on essence.

Bob:

You know what I hope I'm making sense.

Bob:

Like, like it's walk, getting to the essence of something is important.

Bob:

And I, you know, I F and I fought, I fought for things too much fought, but

Bob:

argued things that just don't matter.

Bob:

Right?

Bob:

Yep.

Bob:

It's just, don't, I've done the same.

Bob:

I've done.

Bob:

Does it matter?

Bob:

I'm trying to think of what else.

Bob:

I want to squeeze.

Bob:

I want to squeeze as much juice for.

Bob:

Okay.

Bob:

Well, I will

Josh:

reiterate while you work

Bob:

on that juice.

Bob:

Yes.

Bob:

Jeez.

Bob:

What's wrong with us?

Bob:

Medic casters, weird to such a team.

Bob:

Aren't we, we just play off of each other.

Bob:

So, so

Josh:

elegantly, yeah.

Josh:

Elegantly that's us elegantly for a member.

Josh:

Don't just passively.

Josh:

Listen to what we're talking about.

Josh:

Find the one thing in here that you.

Josh:

I didn't know, you wish you knew and evaluate where you're at and maybe, maybe

Josh:

there's still time, you know, and you can, you can save it and you can make

Josh:

a difference sooner rather than later.

Josh:

And that will set you off in whatever direction you want to go.

Josh:

So please take the time

Bob:

to do that.

Bob:

My final wish I think is I wish I would've known Josh Anderson earlier.

Bob:

I agree.

Josh:

I should've moved here sooner.

Bob:

Yeah.

Bob:

Or, or in general, it's it's, you know, I was joking a little bit.

Bob:

That was pretty apparent.

Bob:

Was it?

Bob:

Yeah, I know it's shocking.

Bob:

but in general, the community, I wish, I wish I would have, like, there's, there's

Bob:

wonderful people in this community.

Bob:

And so if I had a wish and we've talked about this, ask for help more frequently,

Bob:

or I say, you don't know, reach out to us, reach out to other people.

Bob:

I wish I would have reached out sooner because I would have accelerated

Bob:

in some areas I think quicker.

Bob:

Because generally, I mean, someone might say no every once in a while, but in

Bob:

general, kind of, I can't I mean, I had a guy in Atlanta send me, out of the blue.

Bob:

I know.

Bob:

He sent me something today.

Bob:

And, he had like a question he's running a workshop or something.

Bob:

I sent him back a reply and I think it like helped him a lot.

Bob:

That's that's I do that because it's important to me to give back.

Bob:

Right.

Bob:

He'll do that.

Bob:

You'll you do that?

Bob:

There was a girl.

Bob:

I, there was, there was a lady, a girl lady in, in Eastern Europe.

Bob:

That I comment on, I forget her name, but think, I think what's Lina.

Bob:

Yeah.

Bob:

I just love her posts.

Bob:

Yeah.

Bob:

And I try to, I try to give her some encouragement in my

Bob:

comments to her post sometimes.

Bob:

And I, I think you have talked to her or something, she

Bob:

reached out to you for coaching.

Bob:

And I just, I just think doing more of that earlier.

Bob:

would have made me better.

Bob:

It would've made the universe better.

Bob:

Yup.

Bob:

Yeah.

Bob:

I've I, I mean, I've started that in the early days of the Medicus.

Bob:

We didn't do a lot.

Bob:

We didn't do a lot of that.

Bob:

I mean, w what we asked for was feedback, give you, give

Bob:

us topics and things like that.

Bob:

When, when have we done the pivot, like we've done a community

Bob:

diversity give back pivot.

Bob:

It's only been in the last five or less years or something like that.

Bob:

Probably less than three years or something.

Bob:

Yeah.

Bob:

I don't know what's happened.

Bob:

We've we've changed.

Bob:

We've gotten older.

Bob:

We've seen exactly it.

Bob:

We've reflected what we're saying and we've gotten feedback.

Bob:

The other thing is, I think we've gotten some encouragement

Bob:

by people like there's folks.

Bob:

What is that darn tool that people discord, discord.

Bob:

Yes.

Bob:

That people have.

Bob:

Well, you were doing the discourse, things, getting feedback and

Bob:

stuff from people for awhile.

Bob:

There's some,

Josh:

there's some good dialogues in there.

Josh:

The exciting thing that's happening in there right now.

Josh:

Linked below is that there are like role specific channels

Josh:

that people are talking about.

Josh:

It's like a scrum master discussion and product owner discussion.

Bob:

I have to get on there sometimes I have just been, so I just not, it's

Bob:

just another technology kicks my butt.

Bob:

It just does.

Bob:

It just absolutely does.

Bob:

And the name, you know what, by probably

Josh:

I've heard that if I sent it to you before.

Bob:

Yeah.

Bob:

If it was called, like Charlie brown, I'd probably, you know, or cotton candy.

Bob:

Oh, if it was cotton candy, I'd be all over it.

Bob:

I would pay, I w you know, all right.

Bob:

I did.

Bob:

I did.

Bob:

We, I think we squeezed enough juice and the casters it's reflection go

Bob:

back and reflect, listen to what we've said, reflect on your own journeys

Bob:

and start making some earlier pivots.

Bob:

Like I don't, don't get into that sunk cost crap.

Bob:

Oh, I can't make a change.

Bob:

Right.

Bob:

Or I'll call or I'll put it off till next year or next speaking as me,

Bob:

that turns into the next decade.

Bob:

Right.

Bob:

And then you're, you know, it's a little, it's not late, but it's,

Bob:

it's much later than the harder.

Bob:

It makes it much harder.

Bob:

Right.

Bob:

So, really reflect and I wish I would have known.

Bob:

The other thing is in your team.

Bob:

And your teams, you know, run your retro.

Bob:

How about I wish I would've known what retrospective or I

Bob:

wish I would have discovered.

Bob:

And what would we give a ton?

Bob:

So it's, that's, that's start having a tsunami.

Bob:

Whoa of reflection that is, out there.

Bob:

Sounds powerful.

Bob:

All right.

Bob:

So from beautiful downtown, we're in few, quite a few quake.

Bob:

Hyphen Rena I'm Bob Galen, Bob F and Galen,

Josh:

Bob effin gala.

Josh:

And I'm

Bob:

Josh Anderson and Josh F and Anderson.

Bob:

Yeah, baby shake.

Josh:

Oh, we gotta reach.

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Josh Anderson

Josh Anderson is a seasoned software professional with a passion for agile methodologies and continuous improvement. As one of the hosts of The Meta-Cast podcast, Josh brings his wealth of experience and expertise to the table. With a knack for practical advice and a penchant for engaging storytelling, Josh captivates listeners with his insights on agile methodology, team dynamics, and software development best practices. His infectious enthusiasm and dedication to helping others succeed make him a valuable resource for aspiring software professionals.
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Bob Galen

Bob Galen is a recognized industry leader and an authority on agile practices and software architecture. With years of hands-on experience, Bob brings a wealth of knowledge and expertise to The Meta-Cast podcast. As a co-host, he delves into topics ranging from agile fluency to organizational transformations, providing listeners with invaluable insights and strategies. Bob's charismatic and humorous style, combined with his ability to simplify complex concepts, makes him a fan-favorite among software professionals seeking guidance on navigating the challenges of agile development. His passion for continuous learning and his dedication to helping teams succeed shine through in each episode of the podcast.

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