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Episode 220

220 - Revisiting Remote Work

We tackled remote agile teams, but that was back in the pre-pandemic days of 2018! After months of forced remote teams, some companies choose to remain fully remote. That's a slippery slope because the repercussions are still unknown.

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Transcript
Speaker:

We have a juicy one folks.

Speaker:

Remote work.

Speaker:

We initially tackled this.

Speaker:

Back in November of 2018.

Speaker:

How many of you remember that episode?

Speaker:

I don't.

Speaker:

Don't worry about it though, because the world has changed

Speaker:

in case you didn't notice.

Speaker:

Remote became the norm.

Speaker:

In fact, remote became the only But.

Speaker:

After a few years.

Speaker:

Is remote still the best way.

Speaker:

Listen, as we dig in and figure out what the right answer is

Bob:

we're gonna

Bob:

Head first.

Bob:

Hey, Josh.

Bob:

Robert.

Bob:

What do you think about remote work?

Josh Anderson:

Oh boy.

Josh Anderson:

Don't get him, actually do get me started.

Josh Anderson:

does that mean I should start.

Josh Anderson:

You already did.

Josh Anderson:

I didn't really start.

Josh Anderson:

I said, don't get me started.

Josh Anderson:

And then, so now I'm starting.

Josh Anderson:

What

Bob:

do I have to do to get you to

):

That's a good question.

Josh Anderson:

So I have always been a.

Josh Anderson:

Together.

Josh Anderson:

Oh, I was gonna,

Bob:

I was going to start.

Bob:

I have always been a.

Bob:

I wanted to fill out.

Bob:

Fill in the blank.

Bob:

But I couldn't choose the word.

Bob:

There were so many options.

Bob:

So

Josh Anderson:

many restarting without the empty space that

Josh Anderson:

would allow Bob to jump in.

Josh Anderson:

I've always been a let's be together physically.

Josh Anderson:

As much as possible.

Josh Anderson:

That's always been how I've preferred because I've seen

Josh Anderson:

that being most beneficial.

Josh Anderson:

Yep.

Josh Anderson:

And as I was hiring different places, the question always

Josh Anderson:

came up remote work, remote.

Josh Anderson:

Where can I work from home?

Josh Anderson:

The state can work from home this

Josh Anderson:

And I was never really comfortable with Hey, let's all be remote.

Josh Anderson:

Then COVID happened.

Josh Anderson:

And there was no choice.

Josh Anderson:

There was no choice.

Bob:

Everyone had to

Josh Anderson:

go.

Josh Anderson:

And the company I was with, we went through what I call the honeymoon

Josh Anderson:

period where everything was better.

Josh Anderson:

this is new, this is exciting.

Josh Anderson:

Everybody's happy.

Josh Anderson:

everybody can do their thing and it just works and it was working.

Bob:

So this is, remind me step leader or.

Bob:

It's storable yeah.

Bob:

Yeah.

Bob:

So storable and it was growing there.

Bob:

So you were hiring.

Bob:

Oh yeah, right?

Bob:

Yeah.

Josh Anderson:

We hired people that we never met and we

Josh Anderson:

didn't meet until months later,

Bob:

maybe a year later.

Bob:

So that's remote, like on steroids for my point of view is like we're growing,

Bob:

we've never met at people directly.

Bob:

But

Josh Anderson:

COVID forced that with so many people.

Josh Anderson:

Yeah.

Josh Anderson:

And there are so many companies that.

Josh Anderson:

Have stuck with that.

Josh Anderson:

And they've said, Hey, this is who we are.

Josh Anderson:

This is how we're going to I think.

Josh Anderson:

My belief is that.

Josh Anderson:

The dollars one out there.

Josh Anderson:

the cost for the space and everything that goes in that those are just.

Bob:

Y channel advisor just got purchased.

Bob:

By someone, acquire.

Bob:

For someone, but they were saying they had downsized their space by 70%.

Bob:

Over COVID and I know where their space is.

Bob:

And I was like, oh, I didn't realize.

Bob:

So a lot of people.

Bob:

Have cashed in now.

Bob:

They're a microcosm, they're a tech firm.

Bob:

So it's easier to do that.

Bob:

Yeah.

Bob:

Then, like maybe, a chase or something like

Josh Anderson:

that.

Josh Anderson:

But.

Josh Anderson:

And there are people that have reinvested that money.

Josh Anderson:

So they've provided a stipend for employees to upfit their work from

Josh Anderson:

home space or whatever it might be.

Josh Anderson:

They are investing that money in other things to support the employees.

Josh Anderson:

So not everybody's gone Hey, I'm saving a couple million a month now.

Josh Anderson:

I'm just gonna throw it into the stock and everybody's happy, whatever it is.

Josh Anderson:

But yeah, there.

Josh Anderson:

There are some companies that are doing it well.

Josh Anderson:

So this isn't that everybody Like not everybody's evil.

Josh Anderson:

No, there's some really good.

Josh Anderson:

And storable was one of those.

Josh Anderson:

So they really invested in

Josh Anderson:

As.

Josh Anderson:

The effective and.

Josh Anderson:

Useful for everybody.

Josh Anderson:

Yeah.

Josh Anderson:

Now that's where.

Josh Anderson:

Two and a half years later, I think What we started to see just as I was leaving.

Josh Anderson:

Double which was, Half a year, three quarters of a year Was

Josh Anderson:

everybody was like wearing down.

Josh Anderson:

There was fatigue.

Josh Anderson:

From it.

Josh Anderson:

And what we've started doing is getting teams physically together.

Josh Anderson:

And the impact that had on those groups was tremendous.

Josh Anderson:

They talked about how great it was to see and meet and just spend time with people.

Josh Anderson:

It wasn't all working time.

Josh Anderson:

A lot of it was just like, Hey, let's actually meet each other and

Josh Anderson:

talk and understand who you are because in the remote world, Every.

Josh Anderson:

Interaction as planned.

Josh Anderson:

Yeah, because there's a meeting and you can't have a casual talk.

Josh Anderson:

People try and create that with slack or other tools, but it's

Josh Anderson:

not as natural where you get up.

Josh Anderson:

And I bump into somebody, That just doesn't happen or

Josh Anderson:

I haven't seen it happen.

Josh Anderson:

So then evolution.

Josh Anderson:

For me is.

Josh Anderson:

As I was building spaces out at.

Josh Anderson:

Dude solutions.

Josh Anderson:

One of the things that I really strove for was to have a diverse

Josh Anderson:

set of physical working spaces that allowed each individual.

Josh Anderson:

To operate in the way that they were most comfortable.

Josh Anderson:

So there was the traditional bench seating with teams.

Josh Anderson:

So all of the teams had their own room and that's where they were.

Josh Anderson:

That's where they had their meetings.

Josh Anderson:

All the nooks and crannies.

Josh Anderson:

Randy's couches, large gathering places.

Josh Anderson:

You had some small rooms.

Josh Anderson:

yeah.

Josh Anderson:

Yeah.

Josh Anderson:

Because most of the team work could happen in their team room.

Josh Anderson:

Yeah.

Josh Anderson:

it just gave them a space that they didn't have to compete for.

Josh Anderson:

They didn't have to schedule it.

Josh Anderson:

It was always

Bob:

there.

Bob:

Ready for me to do a nice job of rolling whiteboards.

Bob:

Boards everywhere.

Bob:

Yeah.

Bob:

Everywhere.

Bob:

So you could like create partial separation yeah.

Josh Anderson:

But.

Josh Anderson:

Other spaces where people can choose to work.

Josh Anderson:

However they want.

Josh Anderson:

If you prefer a couch, if you prefer like a corner

Bob:

or whatever, we use that.

Bob:

That's all we did eye contact.

Bob:

We were quintessential that way.

Bob:

We.

Bob:

We had a pods.

Bob:

Lots of white rolling whiteboards.

Bob:

We had large rooms, small rooms, but then we have these informal spaces.

Bob:

Like my little couches and things for people to just like cluster

Bob:

around and then let people choose.

Bob:

So it was private space and public space.

Bob:

And I think.

Bob:

And allowed that collaboration.

Bob:

And so

Josh Anderson:

what I believe needs to happen now is that diversity

Josh Anderson:

has to cross the entire spectrum.

Josh Anderson:

Of not only the physical space.

Josh Anderson:

But that mental space of how do you balance.

Josh Anderson:

A.

Josh Anderson:

Operation and organization of a few hundred people.

Josh Anderson:

That you enable them to work.

Josh Anderson:

W whenever, wherever, however, they choose with a physical space,

Josh Anderson:

also allowing them to be at home when it makes sense for them to do

Josh Anderson:

What do you do when you want to get a team together?

Josh Anderson:

Things like that.

Josh Anderson:

I think that's the next evolution that needs to happen.

Josh Anderson:

I don't know if everybody's made that step, but that's where I see people.

Josh Anderson:

It appears to be all or nothing.

Josh Anderson:

Like we're all in the office or we're all not.

Josh Anderson:

And there are a handful of places that are doing the combo and.

Josh Anderson:

It's a pretty interesting.

Josh Anderson:

Variations

Bob:

on the combo.

Bob:

It's like you were saying.

Bob:

We get together with meetings.

Bob:

So like we have a gathering so we can do some relationships, but

Bob:

we're still mostly distributed.

Bob:

so there's variations on the hybrid.

Bob:

There's the occasional get together variation.

Bob:

And then there's the two days a week here, three days a week.

Bob:

There was some variation like that.

Bob:

Yeah.

Bob:

There also seems to be camps of people.

Bob:

Like I, I listened to agile coaches and agile coaches are out there.

Bob:

They're coaching.

Bob:

They're there either inside companies and outside companies.

Bob:

So it's both.

Bob:

But they're really, they've gone all in on remote.

Bob:

and really, so some of them are really like, we want to be remote.

Bob:

It works effectively.

Bob:

You just have to force it.

Bob:

And the companies are bad who are trying to bring it back to hybrid.

Bob:

And it, and I actually see in the agile community, it's mostly,

Bob:

it's more that it's 80% of the conversations seem to be that.

Bob:

I sent you an email the other day, Marcus, I forget his last name

Bob:

from Germany and he was venting.

Bob:

He's I am so tired of not seeing people.

Bob:

Yeah.

Bob:

So he was traveling like to he's in an outside consultant.

Bob:

So he was traveling two to 300 days a year.

Bob:

Over the course of a decade.

Bob:

And then in 2020 or something, 21, he traveled none.

Bob:

So he was, he went to zero.

Bob:

and his, he was seeing the other thing he was saying is I don't like it.

Bob:

But he was also alluding to performance impact.

Bob:

Like that, there's this, an over 50%.

Bob:

Performance impact to teams from his point of view, the scene teams get disengaged.

Bob:

They lose the relationship building side of things.

Bob:

And he was he, so he was the rare exception who was

Bob:

fighting for more FaceTime.

Bob:

I think gore.

Bob:

Maybe leaning into light hybrid.

Bob:

And more or more face-to-face.

Bob:

And

Josh Anderson:

what has happened is during.

Josh Anderson:

Very recent months after COVID.

Josh Anderson:

Hiring practices changed.

Josh Anderson:

And many companies went to we're opening up to the entire

Josh Anderson:

country slash world, correct.

Josh Anderson:

To be able to hire.

Josh Anderson:

So then that creates.

Josh Anderson:

That's hard to undo, correct?

Josh Anderson:

Yeah, because.

Josh Anderson:

One of the challenges is.

Josh Anderson:

Having a home office, can't be an advantage.

Josh Anderson:

For some people and a disadvantage for others where people get together

Josh Anderson:

and there's conversations that happen.

Josh Anderson:

They aren't included.

Josh Anderson:

The conferencing.

Josh Anderson:

Technology is lacking.

Josh Anderson:

There's one microphone around the table.

Josh Anderson:

The person that's not there.

Josh Anderson:

It's hard to hear.

Josh Anderson:

It's hard to interject.

Josh Anderson:

All of those things.

Josh Anderson:

So I'm very in line with Marcus there.

Josh Anderson:

I.

Josh Anderson:

I still believe.

Josh Anderson:

The value of in-person and together is much greater than all remote.

Josh Anderson:

Now that doesn't mean it used to be, if you rewind five, six years ago, People

Josh Anderson:

would ask me during the hiring process.

Josh Anderson:

Hey, can I work home work, work from home like two or three times a week?

Josh Anderson:

I was just like, no, that doesn't fit who we are.

Josh Anderson:

And I'm not sure where I stand Still, I'd have to work through

Josh Anderson:

that because I have very trusted.

Josh Anderson:

Coworkers from the past that I think would work well like that.

Josh Anderson:

But.

Josh Anderson:

You start walking in this balancing act, which you have to walk of best for

Josh Anderson:

the team and the best for the person.

Josh Anderson:

That's that's where the real challenge comes in and what's happened is it's all

Josh Anderson:

shifted to what's best for the person.

Josh Anderson:

What's best for that person individually.

Josh Anderson:

To do their thing.

Josh Anderson:

And while we need to respect honor and empower

Josh Anderson:

There's also a balance of we as a team.

Josh Anderson:

What's best for that.

Josh Anderson:

And it can't be, again, it can't be one of the other, you've

Josh Anderson:

got to find that balancing

Bob:

act.

Bob:

I was thinking about.

Bob:

At the agile conference, there was a company they're a sponsor Acklin avenue.

Bob:

And I know Jen fields, who is a leader there.

Bob:

And Ackman avenue.

Bob:

All of their development.

Bob:

So they're there at development and from in Nashville, And they offshore

Bob:

all of their development to clients.

Bob:

and it's in Honduras.

Bob:

I think most of their people were in Honduras.

Bob:

And so it's a quintessential now they've all been remote, right?

Bob:

that's the model that they've had.

Bob:

There's a cost.

Bob:

Benefit part of that as well.

Bob:

Like any other offshoring?

Bob:

And so it's not just bring people together.

Bob:

We there's, some middle ground that has to happen is what I'm trying to communicate.

Bob:

Yeah, there's an extension.

Bob:

you may have off shore.

Bob:

people.

Bob:

So how do you hand, how do you're not going to change that you're

Bob:

not going to force them to come in.

Bob:

But then the folks that you've hired, so you have off shore is

Bob:

a dynamic that has been ongoing.

Bob:

You have people like my daughter was hired remote.

Bob:

And what do you do?

Bob:

Do you force them to move you.

Bob:

You can, so you've let the Genia exactly.

Bob:

You've let the genie out of the bottle.

Bob:

So I think the next gen is it can't be back.

Bob:

It has to be forward.

Bob:

To something right.

Josh Anderson:

Yeah, there are so many companies that are now,

Josh Anderson:

they don't have a choice, but to

Bob:

be they reduce space, They reduce space or whatever it is.

Bob:

I'm aligned with you though.

Bob:

I think we've lost something.

Bob:

And I don't think we re I think we rationalized it

Bob:

in our heads because COVID.

Bob:

Forced us to, it wasn't possible to do one alternative.

Bob:

So it's, it was good enough.

Bob:

Like people got releases out the door.

Bob:

Yeah.

Bob:

And teams seem to be able to do stuff.

Bob:

So I don't think people analyze back to Marcus's point.

Bob:

I think we've left like capacity.

Bob:

Or CRE to and-or creativity relationships on the table.

Bob:

I

Josh Anderson:

know I struggled with this and I wonder how many

Josh Anderson:

other people struggled with.

Josh Anderson:

General.

Josh Anderson:

Happiness and that feeling of.

Josh Anderson:

Reward for building something together.

Josh Anderson:

Correct.

Josh Anderson:

That's a thing that drives joy within me.

Josh Anderson:

And it was hard to get that same feeling and experience.

Josh Anderson:

In fact, I don't think I did.

Josh Anderson:

Again, to your point, we did things.

Josh Anderson:

We shipped things.

Josh Anderson:

But didn't feel the same for me.

Josh Anderson:

So I was one of the first that said, Hey, if we go back into the

Josh Anderson:

office, like that's a place where I know I'll be more effective.

Bob:

we've come up with part of the rationalization is like

Bob:

the cards you've seen the cards Like you're on mute and things.

Bob:

And we laugh about them.

Bob:

We have all of these tricks and triggers and facilitation

Bob:

techniques and murals, and mirros.

Bob:

and they've all filled in.

Bob:

So before COVID, the tooling was atrocious,

Bob:

I would say, so the tooling and the capabilities increased, but I don't

Bob:

think it's done the soft skills side.

Bob:

a little It hasn't been terrible.

Bob:

But it's undermined.

Bob:

I think

Josh Anderson:

to your point.

Josh Anderson:

We accepted.

Josh Anderson:

subpar solutions.

Josh Anderson:

As

Bob:

there was a sweet choice and a choice.

Bob:

And then

Josh Anderson:

now that's the bar.

Josh Anderson:

Yeah.

Josh Anderson:

And we're okay with it.

Josh Anderson:

Whereas any.

Josh Anderson:

Any study that you see about communication and value of it, and face-to-face,

Josh Anderson:

as you get further apart, it's like, We've devalued that completely.

Josh Anderson:

the face-to-face stuff like, yeah, let's do it once a year.

Josh Anderson:

And what does that really give you as a company?

Josh Anderson:

So there are many companies that are stuck and are, might be scratching their head.

Josh Anderson:

How to unwind it.

Josh Anderson:

I don't know.

Bob:

I'll go back to back here.

Bob:

Ackland avenue, one of the things they did.

Bob:

Is the, they brought everyone from Honduras or a lot of people from Honduras

Bob:

up to Nashville for the conference.

Bob:

And they brought them there, like a week in advance.

Bob:

They rented a house.

Bob:

And, they collaborated and I met them.

Bob:

I had been doing some training of some folks down there.

Bob:

I've been doing some coaching and training with Acklin and

Bob:

it was cool to meet people.

Bob:

Yeah.

Bob:

To see people's faces and it, and they didn't have to do that.

Bob:

And they have a habit of doing that a couple of times.

Bob:

So let's not diminish the hybrid.

Bob:

Face-to-face bring people together, even if it's once a

Bob:

year, that's better than just zoom.

Bob:

And the relationship building, we were hugging, so it wasn't just the work.

Bob:

Yeah.

Bob:

It was having food together.

Bob:

Yeah, it was eating together.

Bob:

It was going out.

Bob:

Yeah.

Bob:

To me, it's not about the work at that point.

Bob:

Yeah.

Bob:

It's, it's about building some camaraderie and relationships

Bob:

and understanding each other.

Josh Anderson:

And so that gets down to the microwave approach.

Josh Anderson:

we're trying to microwave.

Josh Anderson:

Team togetherness team cohesion, all of those things and like anything.

Josh Anderson:

It's going to taste better in a Crock-Pot than, than in the microwave.

Josh Anderson:

I don't know anybody that would rather have a meal that could be

Bob:

cooked in a crocodile.

Bob:

But again, it's a step that's that sounds like diminishing it.

Bob:

Like for example, all these guys looked at me and they said, Bob, we

Bob:

didn't realize you were so handsome.

Bob:

And so good-looking.

Bob:

Was that a

Josh Anderson:

dream or wasn't?

Josh Anderson:

There was a dream.

Josh Anderson:

How many beers?

Josh Anderson:

Yeah, I consumed before

Bob:

that.

Bob:

so I you're right, but we can still survive.

Bob:

So there's the microwave food we can still do.

Bob:

Okay.

Bob:

I get that, but

Josh Anderson:

I don't want to survive.

Josh Anderson:

I don't want to have survive.

Josh Anderson:

As our threshold for

Bob:

success.

Bob:

what I'm trying to communicate.

Bob:

There are kick ass distributed teams.

Bob:

Okay.

Bob:

and in order to become kick-ass, they need proximity.

Bob:

And they probably come up with proximity rules, not just zoom rules

Bob:

and budgets and things like that.

Bob:

Over time.

Bob:

And maybe it's duration and maybe it's respecting duration and

Bob:

nutrition and things like that.

Bob:

Or whatever the secret sauce is.

Bob:

But I don't look at that as a compromise.

Bob:

I look at it.

Bob:

Those given that context.

Bob:

What do we do to make an investment so that the team becomes a and

Bob:

they're never going to be, they're going to be what they're going to

Bob:

be co located wherever they're at.

Bob:

And that helps.

Bob:

And then there, but they're also working remotely.

Bob:

So I think that's fine.

Bob:

That's part of hybrid.

Bob:

That's I wouldn't look down my nose and say that's worse than a

Bob:

co located team in Raleigh Durham.

Bob:

You would, I would, I

Josh Anderson:

think.

Josh Anderson:

Your likelihood.

Josh Anderson:

For success.

Josh Anderson:

Increases the more you have people around each other.

Josh Anderson:

Yes, it can work.

Josh Anderson:

Yes.

Josh Anderson:

It could work.

Josh Anderson:

I would bet that if I hired.

Josh Anderson:

Five people to a team that worked together physically in a space and hired five

Josh Anderson:

people that work together remotely.

Josh Anderson:

That.

Josh Anderson:

Out of the gate and over time.

Josh Anderson:

That togetherness of physical space would outpace the remote

Josh Anderson:

The value that's that, that, that happens just in the stand-up just in seeing

Josh Anderson:

somebody's face, seeing their reaction at Not having to say, Hey, can you put your

Bob:

camera on?

Bob:

So you would find myself defending, there were some variations, the

Bob:

remote, as long as we're investing heavily into and trying to be real.

Bob:

With FaceTime and things like that.

Bob:

But all things being well.

Bob:

Yeah, but diversity, I can have more diversity.

Bob:

Global diversity.

Bob:

Yeah, you're trading that off with local.

Bob:

So there's other trade offs.

Bob:

It's a dynamic environment.

Bob:

All things being equal.

Bob:

Same people.

Bob:

If I could hire exactly the identical folks.

Bob:

And I can't and they're local versus remote and they're clones of each other.

Bob:

Then I think I agree that you're going to get more cohesion.

Bob:

More collaboration, better, better products, right?

Bob:

More energy.

Bob:

From the local team.

Bob:

That's the essence of agile.

Bob:

You and I have argued that.

Bob:

Yeah.

Bob:

The magic of an agile team was not a distributed agile team.

Josh Anderson:

What I fear has or is happening.

Josh Anderson:

Is that we have, and you said Earlier that we have accepted this new reality.

Josh Anderson:

And oh wow.

Josh Anderson:

Zoom got better and slack got better and yeah, it's better.

Josh Anderson:

But what's really better, what does.

Josh Anderson:

What does life look like where you aren't as dependent on

Josh Anderson:

those tools, enabling you to.

Josh Anderson:

Communicate more effectively just communicating in person.

Josh Anderson:

And I've always been that guy, but

Bob:

yes, but We can't shove the genie back in the bottle.

Bob:

So guys like you and I, we can have this bias that says this is best.

Bob:

That's cool.

Bob:

But there's going to be so many situations where folks don't have that.

Bob:

Are you calling me an old

Bob:

Yeah.

Bob:

Yeah.

Bob:

Yeah.

Bob:

and folks, so the new normal.

Bob:

Is, yes, Josh is right, but we're going to have to suck it up.

Bob:

And we're gonna have to figure out how to create high performing teams

Bob:

and distributed maybe with some secret sauce, recipe kinds of things.

Bob:

One I'm, I'm arguing.

Bob:

Is get together as often, get together more often.

Bob:

As a team.

Bob:

Yeah.

Bob:

And that's historic.

Bob:

That's a stretch because a lot of folks don't want to pay that.

Bob:

The folks from Honduras, they had to get plaintiff.

Bob:

you're flying a group up for no other reason.

Bob:

they attended the conference together, et cetera.

Bob:

You're doing team building like that.

Bob:

I came, I don't even know.

Bob:

And it wasn't a large team.

Bob:

But the cost so that's a cost of doing business.

Bob:

And plan for that.

Bob:

And it's still not best.

Bob:

The best situation is face-to-face.

Bob:

I remember I wanted to share, Years ago, I worked in a distributed company.

Bob:

And I was a leader and there's this guy, Malcolm, I forget Malcolm Lee.

Bob:

Was in the UK.

Bob:

And when I was writing code there.

Bob:

So I grew up right.

Bob:

Writing code and I became a director and a VP or whatever, but I worked with Malcolm.

Bob:

And he and I worked together probably for eight years.

Bob:

And we never met.

Bob:

And the coolest thing.

Bob:

And we worked really well together.

Bob:

But at some point I flew to London.

Bob:

And I saw this guy.

Bob:

Yeah.

Bob:

And he had this great and back then, we didn't even have We had

Bob:

cameras, but there It was all text message, email collaboration, right?

Bob:

Checking collaboration, stuff like that.

Bob:

And I saw him and he had long gray hair.

Bob:

And in London at the time they made him wear a suit.

Bob:

So he wore one suit.

Bob:

Malcolm had like every day I was there for two weeks and every

Bob:

day wear the same damn suit.

Bob:

I'm like, I would've never guessed that Malcolm.

Bob:

I had one suit.

Bob:

I would not that this is good.

Bob:

But we established such rapport.

Bob:

We went to the public few so I worked with him.

Bob:

And that face-to-face was met.

Bob:

So our relationship after the face to face was never this, it was never the same.

Bob:

It was.

Bob:

It was so much better.

Bob:

It was so much more respectful and I'm not trying to make an argument.

Bob:

I just, as we were talking, I'm thinking, you were like,

Bob:

oh, we have to be face-to-face.

Bob:

All the time yes.

Bob:

But just that one trip made a huge difference on our relationship.

Bob:

I agree

Josh Anderson:

completely.

Josh Anderson:

What I am saying is for me personally, and again, Don't always do what Josh wants to

Josh Anderson:

do, because we know he's a little crazy.

Josh Anderson:

I would always fight.

Bob:

So you respond to that.

Bob:

So you've been reflecting.

Bob:

In the, during this break.

Bob:

It doesn't take

Josh Anderson:

a lot.

Josh Anderson:

To

Bob:

know that.

Bob:

And you can learn something.

Bob:

This is a new improved Josh.

Bob:

Yeah, I.

Josh Anderson:

I will fight my butt off to have.

Josh Anderson:

Co-located Co-located it.

Josh Anderson:

I'm not saying all in one spot, but I find so I've had teams in China

Josh Anderson:

in Malaysia, in Eastern Europe.

Josh Anderson:

And.

Josh Anderson:

What the way I've shaped it is that's 18.

Josh Anderson:

That's a squad because they're going to be more effective

Josh Anderson:

working together than working

Bob:

across.

Bob:

Josh's team you're putting your money on the line.

Bob:

Yes.

Bob:

So this is the hypothetical question, right?

Bob:

So forget investments, you're building a team.

Bob:

Maybe.

Bob:

development team of 20.

Bob:

So starting out with a single scrum team, you're going to

Bob:

grow it to five scrum teams.

Bob:

In a few years or something.

Bob:

So you're growing a significant, how do you form them?

Bob:

What do you do?

Bob:

Is it local?

Bob:

Yes.

Bob:

It's out of your pocket.

Bob:

You're paying Absolutely.

Bob:

Yeah.

Bob:

What if you can't hire quickly enough.

Josh Anderson:

I have not had that

Bob:

problem.

Bob:

What if, what do you do?

Bob:

Just be patient, which is an option.

Josh Anderson:

I wouldn't.

Josh Anderson:

Allow it.

Josh Anderson:

To get to

Bob:

that, but it did.

Bob:

Yeah.

Bob:

Okay.

Bob:

So you can go off shore.

Bob:

Yeah.

Bob:

You can go remote or you can stick to your, it

Josh Anderson:

would depend on the technology that we're building with.

Josh Anderson:

what

Bob:

I see it depends.

Bob:

What do you do?

Josh Anderson:

It depends on what we're building.

Bob:

Yeah, I.

Bob:

Is it, this is a local sourcing.

Bob:

Or is, this is getting your asparagus locally.

Bob:

Or get our shipping it in.

Bob:

What do you do?

Josh Anderson:

I would get it locally.

Josh Anderson:

Okay.

Josh Anderson:

I would get it locally.

Josh Anderson:

And again, there's a reason why I live, where I live.

Josh Anderson:

Did I say asparagus?

Josh Anderson:

Yeah.

Josh Anderson:

I've had, I don't really like asparagus.

Bob:

Getting broccoli's worse.

Bob:

All right.

Bob:

I would do the same thing.

Bob:

Yeah.

Bob:

I would do the same thing.

Bob:

I hands down.

Bob:

And it would be over my cold dead hands.

Bob:

Yeah.

Bob:

And as we were accelerating the I be doing creative things.

Bob:

can I grow people locally?

Bob:

Establish relationships with local universities.

Bob:

Can I do insure internships in some way.

Josh Anderson:

And allow it to get to, we can't hire, right?

Josh Anderson:

Yeah.

Josh Anderson:

Ton of things you can

Bob:

do.

Bob:

There's a ton of things you could do because that's best

Bob:

Now, probably at some point.

Bob:

During an acquisition or a growth period.

Bob:

I would be overly challenged.

Bob:

Depending on where I'm at.

Bob:

If we were in Iowa, if we were in Ames, Iowa.

Bob:

And we were growing and we were growing at Pendo speeds.

Bob:

We would be challenged.

Bob:

We would probably move.

Bob:

That's the

Josh Anderson:

problem.

Josh Anderson:

The true, that's one of those things where you'd have to really look at that.

Josh Anderson:

and who you are as a company and what you believe in.

Josh Anderson:

Yeah.

Josh Anderson:

It might've been holy crap, this exploded way faster.

Josh Anderson:

And there's also

Bob:

the efficiency play.

Bob:

I remember 37 signals.

Bob:

The, Dropbox, not Dropbox.

Bob:

There's a camp.

Bob:

cam backpack.

Bob:

No back.

Bob:

I know what you're talking The 37 signals guys.

Bob:

What's the, I forget the name of the tool that they created.

Bob:

Bootcamp.

Bob:

It is a bootcamp is not bootcamp.

Bob:

That's the, it's something.

Bob:

That's the The point is they stayed small.

Bob:

Yeah.

Bob:

And they created a kick ass product.

Bob:

Absolutely.

Bob:

MailChimp.

Bob:

Yeah.

Bob:

In Atlanta.

Bob:

stayed relatively small.

Bob:

So there was the, you can do really wonderful things with

Bob:

small teams and that's actually part of the leverage as well.

Bob:

So I'm there I'm you and I are right there.

Bob:

We're arguing.

Bob:

What do we, what's the dynamic in the real world, depending on your logistics

Bob:

or your dynamics, if you're growing.

Bob:

If you, and then as, as you've evolved through COVID yeah.

Bob:

What do you do?

Bob:

What do you have to do?

Josh Anderson:

What I'm saying is that I would fight my tail To get back to that.

Josh Anderson:

I admit.

Josh Anderson:

So

Bob:

you would look like your dog.

Bob:

Yes.

Josh Anderson:

My dog.

Josh Anderson:

My dog has a crop tail.

Josh Anderson:

I didn't do it with scissors.

Josh Anderson:

That's how she came from the breeder.

Josh Anderson:

I know.

Josh Anderson:

We had a, we have this make, I'm making sure the listeners know.

Josh Anderson:

I know, you Oh,

Bob:

that's true.

Bob:

Who knows So everyone, Josh has a Doberman.

Bob:

Yeah.

Bob:

I heard her a little girl, a little baby river.

Josh Anderson:

Yeah, river is her name right?

Josh Anderson:

For all you nerds out

Bob:

there.

Bob:

After I met her for the first time today, everyone, this is a diversion clearly.

Bob:

And I would have never done this.

Bob:

This would have not.

Bob:

So I would have not had the same energy if this was over zoom.

Bob:

Yeah, At all.

Bob:

river was all over me.

Bob:

Yeah.

Josh Anderson:

And we always fight to be physically together to do this.

Josh Anderson:

Yeah.

Josh Anderson:

We have tried remote.

Josh Anderson:

It's

Bob:

worked.

Bob:

It works, but it's not fast.

Bob:

it's not fast.

Bob:

it's not the best rapport.

Bob:

So I'm exactly with you.

Bob:

It's just the weird, how do we go forward?

Bob:

how do you go forward and maybe how do you bring, I think folks have

Bob:

gotten lazy or accept to accepting.

Bob:

Yeah, I think

Josh Anderson:

that's the general.

Josh Anderson:

Change that happened is that it shifted.

Josh Anderson:

And it became the norm and you didn't have a choice.

Josh Anderson:

And so as previous episodes, we, as a industry got pickled.

Josh Anderson:

In that, because that's what it was.

Josh Anderson:

There was no way out.

Josh Anderson:

We didn't know.

Josh Anderson:

When anything could happen.

Josh Anderson:

I remember it's storable.

Josh Anderson:

We're talking about, Hey, are we ever going to open up an office?

Josh Anderson:

I'm going to do we got to wait six more months and see what happens

Josh Anderson:

while this there's an outbreak here.

Josh Anderson:

Like we got to back off.

Josh Anderson:

We don't even want you guys getting together, physically,

Bob:

all of that stuff.

Bob:

Other thing where we're just talking about team performance.

Bob:

What about leading teams in this dynamic?

Bob:

What about leadership?

Bob:

So leadership face-to-face leadership is always a challenge.

Bob:

Yeah.

Bob:

And we've talked historically in the Medi-Cal.

Bob:

Cast like 80% of the leaders suck.

Bob:

So excellent leadership is.

Bob:

Not a premium out in the world.

Bob:

Now take that equation.

Bob:

We're leaders are really struggling.

Bob:

And bring in what remote workers.

Bob:

And is it getting better or worse?

Bob:

I would argue.

Bob:

It's probably getting worse.

Bob:

Or it's more challenging and where it

Josh Anderson:

is more It's definitely more challenging because.

Josh Anderson:

Again, You have to schedule a conversation.

Josh Anderson:

Like a real, Like you have to grab 15 minutes with

Josh Anderson:

somebody instead of a meeting.

Josh Anderson:

I do all that.

Josh Anderson:

As opposed to you're walking back to your desks from stand up and you say, Hey,

Josh Anderson:

that thing you didn't stand up was great.

Josh Anderson:

I think

Bob:

feedback is, yeah, it's nearly impossible to give.

Bob:

In real time.

Bob:

Camera's off.

Bob:

A lot of folks, a lot of folks are like adamant about camera's off now.

Bob:

My daughter ran and speaks about someone or one of her scrum teams.

Bob:

Is has never turned his camera on.

Bob:

And he won't because I don't know, he goes shirtless or

Bob:

something through some physical

Bob:

That he's just no, I won't do it.

Bob:

There

Josh Anderson:

are people that I've worked with.

Josh Anderson:

Back in the physical world.

Josh Anderson:

Who did not want their face to be digitally recorded because

Josh Anderson:

they were security conscious.

Josh Anderson:

I had to honor that and say, Hey, I'm going to take a picture of the group.

Josh Anderson:

And he would just move to the side.

Josh Anderson:

Behind me or whatever.

Josh Anderson:

Cause I knew it was really important to him.

Josh Anderson:

so I never did that to him.

Josh Anderson:

But now.

Josh Anderson:

They're forced into a world where that's the only option.

Josh Anderson:

that puts them in a very uncomfortable

Bob:

spot.

Bob:

But as a leader, how do you read that?

Bob:

You can't read that person.

Bob:

Exactly.

Bob:

if you look at it, that takes away 80% of

Bob:

Like body language and expressions.

Bob:

They could be flipping me off.

Bob:

I don't know.

Bob:

Yeah.

Bob:

Or, and I, but that's true.

Bob:

you can't read the person.

Bob:

Or eye rolls or something.

Bob:

Yep.

Bob:

It's so we're poor.

Bob:

Is really hard for leaders to do, and we weren't good at it face to face.

Bob:

So we're even worse.

Bob:

So there's the team performance part of

Bob:

There's the leadership part of it.

Bob:

Listen to this guy.

Josh Anderson:

It's still has this ring around.

Josh Anderson:

Yeah, it was not like we haven't done 200 episodes.

Josh Anderson:

Moving it away further.

Bob:

Doesn't.

Bob:

no, it was vibrating.

Bob:

On the table.

Bob:

The table, this guy.

Bob:

Yeah.

Bob:

So I apologize, Josh, and to all the listeners.

Bob:

But, you know what, so there's the team dynamics part.

Bob:

I would argue.

Bob:

sometimes we get too focused on product delivery.

Bob:

But the leadership dynamic part, the visioning.

Bob:

The product visioning, product owners, Jasmine storytelling, all of that stuff.

Bob:

Why are.

Bob:

Y sharing a why so that it resonates with the team.

Bob:

That's all.

Bob:

That's all effected by distributed dynamics as well.

Bob:

I think it's

Josh Anderson:

also more difficult to generate.

Josh Anderson:

Enthusiasm.

Josh Anderson:

In a remote world, it takes a real talent.

Josh Anderson:

To be able to get that, whereas you can feel it.

Josh Anderson:

When you're around people and that starts to build on

Bob:

itself, I think that's one of the, you just triggered something in me.

Bob:

I was talking about some coaches they're really adept at, in distributed models.

Bob:

And they don't want to go back there resisting even the idea of

Bob:

going back, it's all going forward.

Bob:

I think it's because they are the difference makers.

Bob:

So it's oh.

Bob:

So they are still these better facilitators and they're creating,

Bob:

they're not creating the same atmosphere that face-to-face has, but

Bob:

they're creating better than standard.

Bob:

Yeah.

Bob:

Collaboration.

Bob:

And bad, better than And they don't and they really are getting value

Bob:

out of their, what they bring to getting better, that, better than bad.

Bob:

And they are, they're good at that, but they've lost sight.

Bob:

These same folks solve the value of face to face.

Bob:

Okay.

Josh Anderson:

So we spent, He knows how many minutes?

Josh Anderson:

30 minutes railing on remote work and saying, Hey, we should go back.

Josh Anderson:

Cool.

Josh Anderson:

Great.

Josh Anderson:

That's easy for Bob and Josh to say, sitting here in North Carolina.

Josh Anderson:

Great.

Josh Anderson:

But what about, Mr or Mrs.

Josh Anderson:

Developer?

Josh Anderson:

That's in a company.

Josh Anderson:

And frustrated.

Josh Anderson:

Because they can't see each other or maybe they're super happy.

Josh Anderson:

I want to work remote, leave me alone, old I have to go back to the

Josh Anderson:

way you did it back in the stone age.

Josh Anderson:

Is there a takeaway?

Josh Anderson:

Is there an action we can give people or is it just, we don't like it.

Josh Anderson:

We think you should.

Josh Anderson:

Go back to the way it was and yesteryear.

Bob:

I think it's, I think it's Make it a priority.

Bob:

I think about Rhiannon.

Bob:

She made trips down here from New York to visit her scrum teams.

Bob:

She, when she did that, she went out socially with her scrum master group.

Bob:

Her tribe.

Bob:

And so it's, she could have skipped the trip.

Bob:

She could have not done the social interaction.

Bob:

She w and I'm just using it as an example.

Bob:

It's finding opportunities.

Bob:

I think it's the realization that face-to-face is We've lost it.

Bob:

We've lost that we rationalize.

Bob:

Probably a great percentage of people were like, this is

Bob:

the new normal get used to it.

Bob:

And it's as good as it gets.

Bob:

And in their hearts, if they really reexamined, it's no,

Bob:

it's not, it can be better.

Bob:

Face-to-face is better.

Bob:

So work hard.

Bob:

To find opportunities.

Bob:

So even something as simple as damn camera on.

Bob:

Yeah.

Bob:

Oh, okay.

Bob:

Yeah.

Bob:

Turn your damn camera on.

Bob:

Yeah.

Bob:

And if you wrinkle your forehead, cause you don't like a conversation wrinkle

Bob:

your forehead, be real, be genuine.

Bob:

Communicate don't use the lags is, to get lazy.

Bob:

Oh, it wasn't.

Bob:

I couldn't get a word in edgewise.

Bob:

So then I didn't and I disagreed with that, but I get a word in edgewise.

Josh Anderson:

Yeah.

Josh Anderson:

I get called out all the time for the faces.

Josh Anderson:

I make.

Josh Anderson:

They say, oh, Josh just made a face.

Josh Anderson:

what's

Bob:

going on.

Bob:

Do you have to say.

Bob:

And don't give me any BS or, Take the time and have the freaking wherewithal

Bob:

to get your thoughts in there.

Josh Anderson:

So for everybody that's in this position.

Josh Anderson:

Engage as best as you can be as real as you can, that will drive success.

Bob:

Go into the office.

Bob:

Yeah.

Bob:

I saw a CEO in this local area.

Bob:

He sent out something on LinkedIn.

Bob:

Doug Kaufman.

Bob:

So now our LinkedIn thing.

Bob:

I'm starting to see this turn where people are tired of this.

Bob:

And he's I just want to meet someone in a coworking.

Bob:

I think Doug is forming a company or between or whatever he is.

Bob:

And he sent out something that said, if you're tired of sitting at home, working.

Bob:

And you would like to go to, meet in a coffee shop or go to a coworking space.

Bob:

Let me know.

Bob:

And a bunch of people responded yeah.

Bob:

From different companies.

Josh Anderson:

I are going to meet up in a couple

Bob:

Over.

Bob:

Okay.

Bob:

So that's the, so there's an idea of, I know I'm missing out.

Bob:

I think that's the message I'd like to give to the listeners.

Bob:

Is realize that we're not best and we may never get back to that best,

Bob:

but work hard to get close to that.

Josh Anderson:

And then the other piece is we would slash our challenge leaders.

Josh Anderson:

Two.

Josh Anderson:

Not accept this norm.

Josh Anderson:

You don't have to, some of you might feel like.

Josh Anderson:

It's banked and I can't on bake this cake.

Josh Anderson:

Okay.

Josh Anderson:

I think you could, maybe cut it up and make it cupcakes.

Bob:

Do something like Anything you can do.

Bob:

To honor face-to-face collaboration.

Bob:

and again, what we're saying, it's back to the essence of the medic cast.

Bob:

It's back to agile basics.

Bob:

Get as close to that.

Bob:

I remember an episode we did.

Bob:

We talked about this.

Bob:

Last few years ago, and you were heartbroken about you were little,

Bob:

you were, you understood COVID.

Bob:

But you're like, I really.

Bob:

I worry that we're missing the magic, the secret sauce.

Bob:

So everyone realized that we're not in secret sauce spill anymore.

Josh Anderson:

And one thing, and this is something that we're

Josh Anderson:

trying to do that I'm working on personally with my own business.

Josh Anderson:

And then we, as the medic cast is you said back to agile basics, but that's not.

Josh Anderson:

Agile encourages it.

Josh Anderson:

But you don't have to be agile.

Josh Anderson:

You don't have to know you scrum to see value in being.

Josh Anderson:

In a room together with the people that you're working your tails off with?

Bob:

Absolutely.

Bob:

Yeah, absolutely.

Bob:

there's so many videos, there's a hackathons videos on the web and YouTube.

Bob:

Imani has some hackathon.

Bob:

They don't do it via zoom.

Bob:

This is pre COVID, but if you look, you want to convince

Bob:

yourself that as about look, look at some of these things, mobbing.

Bob:

You can do remote mobbing.

Bob:

It's not the same.

Bob:

Look at the energy in the room, I'm the hackathon.

Bob:

Look at the discussion.

Bob:

Look at the passion.

Bob:

Having someone like applaud your efforts, Yeah.

Bob:

Like the C I leader, seeing something.

Bob:

Demonstrated.

Bob:

I know you can demonstrate it as

Josh Anderson:

opposed to a clapping emoji.

Bob:

Exactly.

Bob:

Exactly.

Bob:

Exactly.

Bob:

yeah, we are in a new normal, get it.

Bob:

And I'm not forcing everyone, but man, it's worth being creative.

Bob:

To find opportunities.

Bob:

All right.

Josh Anderson:

I like that.

Josh Anderson:

so that's the challenge is.

Josh Anderson:

Be creative.

Josh Anderson:

Don't accept that this reality has to be the reality for the rest of your career.

Josh Anderson:

Correct.

Josh Anderson:

That there are many things that you can do.

Josh Anderson:

And.

Josh Anderson:

Things that no one's thought of.

Bob:

How about role Maybe a cherry on top of this is using cameras as an example.

Bob:

Right turn.

Bob:

So role model.

Bob:

So it's how do I do that with my team?

Bob:

Turn your damn camera You get up and meet someone in comfort

Bob:

coffee and invite someone you.

Bob:

So don't wait for some magical organizational thing.

Bob:

To happen.

Bob:

So we're talking about making steps.

Bob:

Every leader, everyone take action.

Bob:

And focus on what do I do to raise that bar?

Bob:

And role model, show don't whine.

Bob:

Don't negate it.

Bob:

Don't talk about the new normal.

Bob:

be a leader and show people what the stretches can be.

Bob:

Get out there and lead

Josh Anderson:

people.

Josh Anderson:

Let's go.

Josh Anderson:

The world needs it

Bob:

in this.

Bob:

Absolutely.

Bob:

The world needs it.

Bob:

Yeah.

Bob:

Are we done?

Bob:

I feel like the fork

Josh Anderson:

has been stopped.

Bob:

Yeah.

Bob:

Hey everyone from beautiful downtown.

Bob:

Or uptown.

Bob:

North Carolina.

Bob:

I'm Bob Galen.

Bob:

I'm Josh Anderson shake and bake.

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Josh Anderson

Josh Anderson is a seasoned software professional with a passion for agile methodologies and continuous improvement. As one of the hosts of The Meta-Cast podcast, Josh brings his wealth of experience and expertise to the table. With a knack for practical advice and a penchant for engaging storytelling, Josh captivates listeners with his insights on agile methodology, team dynamics, and software development best practices. His infectious enthusiasm and dedication to helping others succeed make him a valuable resource for aspiring software professionals.
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Bob Galen

Bob Galen is a recognized industry leader and an authority on agile practices and software architecture. With years of hands-on experience, Bob brings a wealth of knowledge and expertise to The Meta-Cast podcast. As a co-host, he delves into topics ranging from agile fluency to organizational transformations, providing listeners with invaluable insights and strategies. Bob's charismatic and humorous style, combined with his ability to simplify complex concepts, makes him a fan-favorite among software professionals seeking guidance on navigating the challenges of agile development. His passion for continuous learning and his dedication to helping teams succeed shine through in each episode of the podcast.

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Lisa $10
Thank you both for sharing all your insight. It's been extremely valuable to me.