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Episode 214

214 - Personal Performance Goals as a Scrum Master

How can I, as a scrum master, know I am doing well? We answer that question for Bridget Brown in today's episode. This is a tricky one, but we're pretty darn proud of what we landed on. Would you like your question answered? Drop a comment on this thread on LinkedIn, and let's discuss!!

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Transcript
Josh:

I have multiple Roombas and they're all named after, Rocky villains or

Josh:

they Apollo clubber and thunder lips.

Bob:

I would have stuff to cover.

Bob:

I forgot Clumber clubber.

Bob:

Lang Lang is my favorite clever, clever Lang lovers.

Bob:

The best

Josh:

I assume that everybody follows.

Josh:

Both Bob and I on LinkedIn.

Josh:

So you saw the thread from Bob asked for topics and it was a near

Josh:

avalanche of thoughts and ideas.

Bob:

It was a brouhaha.

Bob:

What?

Bob:

Wow.

Bob:

It was, it was pretty, yeah, there is a, there was a lot of feedback and they'll

Bob:

probably still we'll get some feedback.

Bob:

Right.

Josh:

So today we're pulling our first topic from that list from Bridget brown.

Josh:

I prefer to pronounce it Bridgette.

Josh:

So Fuji.

Josh:

Well, there's no horsemanship, but we've got Bob.

Josh:

Yeah.

Josh:

Bob says, Bridgette, I say Bridgette, but we have both places.

Josh:

Never let us know.

Josh:

And,

Josh:

and

Bob:

Bridget is interested in, I'll just read it.

Bob:

I would like to see something about writing self-directed

Bob:

performance goals for scrum masters in POS the original question.

Bob:

How do I, as a scrum master misery success in my position can be such a challenge.

Bob:

So, so that's,

Josh:

that's the question.

Josh:

So we're going to start with scrub masters and see how far we go.

Josh:

It may turn into a series, as we tell.

Josh:

All of the other roles, but today is going to center on scrum masters.

Josh:

Yes.

Josh:

So you're a scrum master.

Josh:

How do you know you're doing good?

Josh:

Because there are so many times so many places I'm assuming this is a world that

Josh:

Bridgette lives in where there's not a strong leader of the agile practice.

Josh:

Or reports into a different role or something like that.

Josh:

Like I've seen scrum masters report to engineering directors.

Josh:

So you're trying to chart your own path in an agile way and like,

Josh:

what, how do I know I'm crushing it?

Bob:

I mean, I'd start, it's going to sound maybe.

Bob:

I mean, I mean, Brigid's question, I think was more outside, like performance

Bob:

of the team and things like that.

Bob:

I'm going to start on the inside and say, ah, ha you know, how do you

Bob:

measure your, your own self-mastery.

Bob:

Yeah.

Bob:

So things like.

Bob:

Focusing on your learning, focusing on you know, what's, what's my

Bob:

personal backlog for learning.

Bob:

Do you have you have such a thing?

Bob:

Yeah.

Bob:

And do you, have you created one and are you, so are you working on

Bob:

improvement, personal improvement, not anyone telling you, right.

Bob:

This is you privately by yourself.

Bob:

With feedback, if you can get feedback, but if you don't have feedback, then

Bob:

there what's the last book you read are you out in the community and

Bob:

connecting the dots and networking?

Bob:

I think of the self-mastery.

Bob:

So lately I I've been, I've been working on this coaching book

Bob:

and w so ingrained in my brain is the, the agile coaching group.

Bob:

Which is a wheel and in the middle of that is self-mastery.

Bob:

So for agile coaches.

Bob:

And so I'm not, I'm not inventing this, I'm just saying I'm bringing

Bob:

this into Bridget's question.

Bob:

I th I think the center of the coaching growth wheel is self-mastery

Bob:

like, self-awareness is something.

Bob:

And I would, I would actually bring that into scrum mastery is like measuring

Bob:

what you're doing on the inside.

Bob:

And are you doing anything and how are you growing yourself?

Josh:

You know, what's interesting is I find myself often orthogonal

Josh:

to many of the best scrum masters and agile coaches that I

Bob:

work with.

Bob:

So you find yourself what orthogonal is that like a bird

Josh:

it's a no, not ornithologist.

Josh:

You're on fire.

Josh:

You are fricking fire.

Josh:

In that I don't, I don't do anywhere close to the amount of continual

Josh:

research and reading and digging that.

Josh:

So many of my peers that are absolute rock stars do.

Josh:

I, I, I try and learn by doing and like failing and adjusting and learning,

Josh:

but there have been times along the way where I have forced myself to like, stop

Josh:

and read and learn and do those things.

Josh:

I'm like, oh, well, shit, that would make things easier.

Josh:

Or, oh, I'm kind of doing that.

Josh:

But if I did did more of that, but I don't know.

Bob:

You're not a self learner, so not a external

Josh:

I, and I wonder if like that's just a personality trait or whatever,

Josh:

you know, because like you think about this, I'm super passionate about

Josh:

creating content for people learn, but I don't listen to other podcasts.

Bob:

It's funny.

Bob:

Well, I don't, I don't listen to that.

Bob:

I occasionally do.

Bob:

But not, I'm not a regular listener, but, but you know, I'm an avid reader.

Bob:

Yeah.

Bob:

So I think we all have, you know, that you never, you bring it up.

Bob:

I've noticed that about you and I haven't really said anything.

Bob:

Yeah.

Bob:

There's a couple of books.

Bob:

What's the, there's a book on leadership that you always,

Josh:

uh, turn the ship around.

Josh:

No, No, it's a good to great,

Bob:

great by choice.

Bob:

There's a team.

Bob:

There's a team, the,

Josh:

a

Bob:

debugging teams.

Bob:

That's the one when I think there.

Bob:

So you latch onto a few.

Bob:

Yes.

Bob:

Right?

Bob:

When you, like, when you find one you're like all over it.

Bob:

So there's no shades of gray

Josh:

wood, like the whole Spotify thing.

Josh:

Yeah.

Josh:

Like I actually read the original write-up about that

Josh:

and that got the wheels turning.

Josh:

And many of you know, that I've been on the Spotify train for

Josh:

a long while, but I do kind of Spotify my way, you know, what you

Bob:

would, you recommend it.

Bob:

So here we are on a stage.

Bob:

Giving people advice.

Bob:

I mean, do you, are you, are you recommending the Josh way?

Bob:

I am.

Josh:

I am just trying to provide an alternate view that you can.

Josh:

You don't have to completely measure by the number of books that you've read.

Josh:

I think you have to find your learning style.

Josh:

there are so many times when, like back when I was streaming on Twitch all of

Josh:

the time and we would get in a discussion and somebody would reference a book or

Josh:

reference a paper written by somebody.

Josh:

And I'm like, I have no idea.

Josh:

What that is.

Josh:

You're like, but Josh, you're the, you're the guy on the microphone.

Josh:

Well, don't, you know, everything like, cause I don't right.

Josh:

That's but, but the angle I was trying to point there is that.

Josh:

You can learn differently.

Josh:

I learn by doing that's how I've found that I accelerate my, my growth.

Josh:

There are, like I said, many of the best folks that I know that are out there, that

Josh:

I've worked with are the opposite of that.

Josh:

And they are book and podcast and blog heavy, and that's how they, that's

Josh:

how they grow the way that they want

Bob:

to grow.

Bob:

I think it's a hybrid it's because, so I guess what I was

Bob:

trying to say is not pick yeah.

Bob:

I think the self-mastery is.

Bob:

Take some professional accountability.

Bob:

And so are you taking professional and, and, you know, sort of, do you own your

Josh:

own improvement?

Bob:

Yeah.

Bob:

And it's almost like, what are those avenues and are you,

Bob:

and are you self-aware of your strengths and your weaknesses?

Bob:

So one of the things I want to send you for this podcast is.

Bob:

Competitive agility has a series of surveys or assessments.

Bob:

Okay.

Bob:

And, they have three of them called professional

Bob:

improvements and they're free.

Bob:

They're free.

Bob:

I think the scrum master is free for scrum Alliance members.

Bob:

And you can go in there and take it's like 60 questions or whatever, but what you

Bob:

get is a, a rounded view of where are your strengths and where are your weaknesses?

Bob:

That I think would be useful for someone.

Bob:

So I think some people, what I'm saying is some people don't think that way.

Bob:

Right there.

Bob:

They don't think in continuous improvement.

Bob:

I care less about the how.

Bob:

Yeah.

Bob:

And it has to lean into like what I admire about what you're doing.

Bob:

Like you got to leave.

Bob:

If even if you're an avid book reader, you have to practice that stuff.

Bob:

Right.

Bob:

You have to be practical about it.

Bob:

Yeah.

Bob:

So, so, so, so let's just

Josh:

lay in that one baseline, like to me, that's baseline.

Josh:

Yeah.

Josh:

Anything else?

Josh:

You have to own your own improvement and you can't wait for somebody.

Josh:

To build you a syllabus, correct?

Josh:

For your own path, you have to do the

Bob:

deuce, do something there and track it.

Bob:

So that's a measurement.

Bob:

The reason I'm bringing it up is, I don't know if very many companies

Bob:

measure that they're going to measure your external successes or lack thereof.

Bob:

Right.

Bob:

So let's start there now.

Bob:

Why don't you pick one?

Bob:

What, what does, what does, how do I, how do I, as a ScrumMaster

Bob:

measure success in my position?

Bob:

So

Josh:

the thing that I've always said to scrum masters or agile

Josh:

coaches that I've hired is.

Josh:

Your job is to put yourself out of a job.

Bob:

Ooh, I like that.

Bob:

That's we're like nailing the priorities, right?

Bob:

Start with the inside out,

Josh:

put yourself out of a job.

Josh:

And reality is that's never going to happen, but that, but that's your

Josh:

aspirational goal mindset, right?

Josh:

You want to infuse the team with the same agile mindset and that, to me,

Josh:

that's the key is that agile mindset.

Josh:

That they can respond and react and work well together.

Josh:

Do all the things that a good healthy team does without you nudging them

Josh:

or pushing them to make that happen.

Josh:

Eventually your, your teams will get so good that you don't have to say very much.

Josh:

And there'll be times when you can just give a look and people go, oh, yep.

Josh:

You're right.

Josh:

Okay.

Josh:

We're back on it.

Josh:

And so then at that point, that's where, that's where you start to expand and

Josh:

you have the capability if you want.

Josh:

And all your company needs you to, to work with another team or something like that.

Josh:

But I find that too many companies spread scrum masters too thin, too soon.

Josh:

Yep.

Josh:

There's a time and a place where it works, but they don't get to

Josh:

that point where that mindset is ingrained in the minds of their teams.

Josh:

So that, so to me, that's the, the baseline is you have to

Josh:

own own yourself learning.

Josh:

And then your like north star, your light on the hill is I'm going to put myself

Josh:

out of a job because these teams are going to be so ingrained in the agile mindset.

Josh:

So then in the middle, what are the things in the middle?

Bob:

Okay.

Bob:

I, I, as you were talking, I was also thinking about values.

Bob:

Like, are you walking your values?

Bob:

There's five scrum values.

Bob:

I trigger on courage and it actually, I, one of the ways that trigger

Bob:

on courage is, are you challenging the status quo in a 360 fashion?

Bob:

So are you challenging your boss?

Bob:

Are you challenging your peers?

Bob:

Challenging in a positive way, in a respectful way, but and you know, and it

Bob:

goes in both directions, but are you, are you sort of walking your, your value talk?

Bob:

I would, I would measure that in some way or I would evaluate myself

Bob:

against my principle orientation and particularly courage.

Bob:

I think the scrum master.

Bob:

Oh yeah.

Bob:

In order for it to be high performing as for you to be high-performing

Bob:

there because it's, it's a tough, it's an incredibly tough job.

Bob:

It aligns with me to leadership.

Bob:

You know, how you and I've talked about right.

Bob:

Leadership is, you know, bring your.

Bob:

Every you have to a good leader, has to bring their a game all those days.

Bob:

And they can't, you know, they can't just waffle.

Bob:

They have to, you know, they have to lead, they have to

Bob:

defend, they have to challenge.

Bob:

They have to do that for their team.

Bob:

We've talked about that.

Bob:

I think a lot of that falls to a scrum that.

Bob:

That same dynamic.

Bob:

Unfortunately, most ScrumMasters are less experienced than the leaders.

Bob:

Right?

Bob:

So it's hard for us.

Bob:

We've talked about, it's hard for a lot of leaders to do that.

Bob:

It's hard for scrum masters do it, but I think that's the bar.

Bob:

What do you think?

Josh:

I agree, 100%.

Josh:

If it was easy to be a highly functioning team, people wouldn't

Josh:

need scrum masters, but scrub master.

Josh:

I have to be that annoying coach.

Josh:

That's just constantly in people's ears of we can do better.

Josh:

Here's a thought an idea.

Josh:

Let's try this.

Josh:

Okay.

Josh:

We tried that, that didn't work.

Josh:

Let's try it again.

Josh:

Here's where we're at.

Josh:

Right?

Josh:

You just have to be think back to a coach or a teacher or a parent

Josh:

or someone in your life that.

Josh:

Maybe wouldn't let you slide on things as much as you would've liked more.

Josh:

Bet slash assumption is that they had a relatively high degree of impact in your

Josh:

life and how you became who you are.

Josh:

Right.

Josh:

Either positively or negatively, maybe you're like, I don't ever want to do that.

Josh:

Or like, yes, that's, that's who I became.

Josh:

Right.

Josh:

But those are coaching moments where as soon as you see a coaching moment

Josh:

and you don't take action on it, you

Bob:

failed.

Bob:

Did we talk in a recent Medi-Cal about complacent teams or, and I think

Bob:

this is, this is coming back to that in my mind that it's, it's really

Bob:

easy to just mail it in because it's so, and it's not just being an ass.

Bob:

So we, we are not saying be a jerk or be a dictator, or be

Bob:

a project manager or whatever.

Bob:

Where's, there's subtlety in the balancing act, but you have to lean into.

Bob:

Calling it, what it is, it's confronting the team.

Bob:

And a lot of scrum masters, I find it.

Bob:

And as, as scrum is increasing in popularity, I think the universe

Bob:

of scrum masters who were sort of, they think they have to be

Bob:

the team's friends or something.

Bob:

Yeah.

Bob:

So one there's this like I'm, I need to be a friend of the team and then

Bob:

I to, I don't want to rock the boat.

Bob:

Right.

Bob:

Your job is to rock the boat.

Bob:

Right.

Bob:

And, and your job is to rock the boat.

Bob:

Yeah.

Bob:

But a lot of them are really uncomfortable with that.

Bob:

It's like, oh, they're like handling the team with kid gloves.

Bob:

And you can hear that in their voice and they're frustrated about it.

Bob:

Right.

Bob:

But they're not doing any of that.

Bob:

So they're frustrating the team's performance and you've

Bob:

got to take the gloves off.

Josh:

Yeah.

Josh:

And so we, we throw around the term, highly functioning team,

Josh:

high, highly effective team, whatever a lot of other people do.

Josh:

And a lot of other channels be it Cod podcasts, books,

Josh:

blogs, videos, you name it.

Josh:

But the reality is those teams.

Josh:

Are great and great is not an accident you don't stumble into being great.

Josh:

I would agree.

Josh:

You become great through continual hard work and improvement.

Josh:

That that that's where the magic is, but that magic is driven by.

Josh:

A team's desire to become great.

Josh:

And, and in that means that they are willing to accept the coaching.

Josh:

They have a strong coaching support team, whoever it might be, it might

Josh:

be the manager, it might be the scrub master or both or whatever, but great.

Josh:

Doesn't just fall out of the sky.

Josh:

You have to make it happen.

Josh:

And a scrub master.

Josh:

That's your job.

Josh:

Your job is to help the team become great, not make the team.

Josh:

Help the team become great.

Bob:

And it's not just teamwork, as you were talking.

Bob:

I was thinking an example that popped into my head was like a

Bob:

sprint review that no one comes to.

Bob:

And the team is demoing to themselves or to that, but no stakeholders are there.

Bob:

So to me, part of this, a scrum masters role, I want to hear you weigh in on this.

Bob:

Someone has to, I don't care who it is, but someone has to kick off.

Bob:

And get the stakeholders in that room, right?

Bob:

The team is working for them.

Bob:

It's embarrassing.

Bob:

It's demoralizing to the team.

Bob:

There's no recognition going on as to how either.

Bob:

Excellent or there's just no feedback.

Bob:

Right?

Bob:

That's unacceptable now.

Bob:

So in a lot of case, you could say, well, that's an impediment and I'm going to

Bob:

tell my boss, I'm going to tell the coach.

Bob:

I sent an email to the coach or in my one-on-one.

Bob:

I talked to my boss about it.

Bob:

I don't know if that's good enough.

Bob:

No, I mean, I, maybe that's okay as a start, but I also

Bob:

think you have to get up what,

Josh:

isn't the job of a scrub master to remove impediments.

Bob:

There's this line between removing them, what you, what you feel like

Bob:

you can directly change and then what Dell, what what's out of your control.

Bob:

There's there's certain things.

Bob:

For example, the team doesn't have, would they need $20,000

Bob:

worth of equipment, right?

Bob:

That the scrum master can not directly.

Bob:

And pull $20,000 out of there, but

Josh:

I would expect that with.

Josh:

Sign ways to try and make that happen.

Bob:

That's where I'm going.

Bob:

Yeah.

Bob:

Right.

Bob:

And then they delegated to the chief financial officer, or they talked to

Bob:

their boss, but two weeks go by and then what they get is lip service.

Bob:

Well, you know, the policies and the procedures of this.

Bob:

So it's going to take a six months to get that right.

Bob:

Et cetera.

Bob:

So what are you doing at some point?

Bob:

You, you, you don't have the power, you don't have equivalent power

Bob:

to everyone in the organization.

Bob:

But what steps have you taken?

Bob:

Let's do my demo.

Bob:

Forget, forget the money side of them.

Bob:

It's I would walk into people's offices and say, we missed you

Bob:

like the VP of sales, right?

Bob:

Who is three levels?

Bob:

Five levels above me.

Bob:

I would probably politely introduce myself.

Bob:

Give them some chocolate or bourbon or whatever, but I would be like,

Bob:

you need to get your, your butt.

Bob:

Like we missed you.

Bob:

The team missed you.

Bob:

We delivered something to you as.

Bob:

And we needed your feedback.

Bob:

So I'm not asking, I'm telling you to get into the net or something.

Bob:

I'd be like, we need you to be in this.

Bob:

I might walk in with my product owner.

Bob:

Right.

Bob:

And side-by-side, cause I think the product owner plays a part in that.

Bob:

But the point is it's, it's taking that.

Bob:

So it's not just downward pressure, you know, I, you

Bob:

need to be firm with your team.

Bob:

I think you need to be firm with the organization.

Josh:

Yeah.

Josh:

Agreed because you're.

Josh:

You're changing the way an organization operates.

Josh:

They didn't have these before, so they don't know the value.

Josh:

It's your job to help them understand the value, show the value and then have them

Josh:

recognize, oh yeah, I'm here every time.

Bob:

One of the interesting things about my daughter Rhiannon has

Bob:

pivoted to scrum mastery and she's got a lot of leadership experience.

Bob:

So she's the most junior, she's been a scrum master for six months.

Bob:

Six seven months.

Bob:

And she feels like an imposter sometimes when it comes to scrum, she's doing

Bob:

well, but, but it's still, yeah.

Bob:

And software teams are not, she's never worked with all the teams, but

Bob:

what she does have is leadership jobs.

Bob:

And, and I see her in some of the stories she tells, like she and

Bob:

people are looking at her like, it's like, holy crap, what are you doing?

Bob:

I mean, in a positive.

Bob:

So she has those leadership skills.

Bob:

So that's actually what being a differentiator for her.

Bob:

Right.

Bob:

But she won't put, she won't tolerate BS at that level.

Bob:

This is, you're not a jerk, but she's going to call people out.

Bob:

If leaders aren't supporting the team, if you say this is the most

Bob:

important project on the planet earth, and then you're not acting that way,

Bob:

she's gonna, she's going to, yeah.

Bob:

I mean, she

Josh:

had a lifetime of practice.

Josh:

I mean, her dad, a lot of.

Josh:

Thank you, Josh.

Josh:

I could, that was too easy, was

Bob:

cutting through the beat.

Bob:

So she had an entire lifetime of cutting

Josh:

doesn't know how much you've helped her like that you

Josh:

were being intentional, right?

Josh:

Like you knew this was going to be worked out.

Josh:

Are you

Bob:

done now?

Bob:

That was your moment looking at you.

Bob:

Some happiness is a moment to shine, but, but.

Bob:

I think other scrum masters coming in, they have to that's

Bob:

the muscle they have to develop.

Bob:

Yeah.

Bob:

Right.

Bob:

That leadership muscle.

Bob:

So that's part of it is measuring that I put down.

Bob:

It's not in, it's not your personal success.

Bob:

Oh yeah.

Bob:

Without a doubt.

Bob:

It's the team.

Bob:

Right.

Bob:

So another thing when Bridget was I, and she didn't say either way.

Bob:

You know, we talked about personal attributes, but everything is

Bob:

through the lens of your team.

Bob:

Right.

Bob:

Everything.

Bob:

I mean, I think a hundred, it's the same, this, you know, it's a leadership role.

Bob:

Absolutely.

Bob:

Right.

Bob:

I'm coming back.

Bob:

Like leaders don't measure it.

Bob:

You can't make sure, right.

Bob:

Oh, I'm an outstanding leader.

Bob:

Well, what are the results?

Bob:

Right.

Bob:

What's going on?

Bob:

You've had 50% attrition.

Bob:

Well, yeah, you got results, but you toasted your team.

Bob:

Yeah, no.

Bob:

You get measured through what, what occurs?

Bob:

I think the same thing.

Bob:

So for scrum masters it's whether you like it or not, and this is why I think

Bob:

being tough, if you will, organizationally in your team or raising the bar or

Bob:

being real or not be messing around it's you're doing it for the team and

Bob:

you're doing it for overall performance.

Bob:

Yeah.

Bob:

So measure.

Bob:

So it's not an individual.

Bob:

No, I,

Josh:

you know, I always go back to coaching.

Josh:

The players are on the field, making the plays, the coaches not.

Josh:

Yeah.

Josh:

And the players ultimately decide whether the game is won or lost, but

Josh:

the coach is measured, is measured on whether the team wins or loses.

Josh:

It's the same thing.

Josh:

And that's a very uncomfortable position for so many people to realize that you

Josh:

can't like grab a lever and pool with all of your might and flip it over to winning.

Josh:

You can't do that.

Josh:

It is just a continual.

Josh:

Dogfight to help change the hearts and minds of a group

Josh:

of people to work differently.

Josh:

Welcome to our diversity inclusion minutes says sad, Josh, and you'll

Josh:

find out why Josh has sat in a minute.

Bob:

So What's going on in my space.

Bob:

Well, I, there is something to, did you get invited by the

Bob:

agile disciple USA or whatever?

Bob:

Did they reach out to you?

Bob:

Okay.

Bob:

Cause you I'm going to ping them again.

Bob:

Okay.

Bob:

And so next, next Saturday, the 22nd or something we'll

Bob:

put it, I'll get you a link.

Bob:

I'm going to be, this is their first webinar.

Bob:

It's next Saturday in the afternoon.

Bob:

I'll get you a link for that.

Bob:

And the reason I'm involved and it's, I just want to add my voice to get

Bob:

some energy going for these folks.

Bob:

So it's their first webinar.

Bob:

The other thing, speaking of speaking Rhiannon and I are so I'm, women in agile,

Bob:

I'll be, I'll be speaking at agile Philly women in agile in like a week or so.

Bob:

And then in February 10th, I think Rhiannon and I are doing, like a father

Bob:

daughter asked me anything for the, agile Seattle women in agile, Seattle.

Bob:

Nice.

Bob:

So we're like hitting both.

Bob:

We're hitting both coasts to some degree.

Bob:

So there's three talks to, for women in agile.

Bob:

And one for what I would say, people of color, agile disciples.

Bob:

And we've talked about that before and really trying to support those.

Bob:

I'm ex I'm trying to do whatever I can.

Josh:

And Bob continues to carry the load it for

Bob:

we're we're we're a team, man.

Bob:

We're a team.

Bob:

so yes,

Josh:

I continue to not have good

Bob:

enough updates.

Bob:

So we're going to get you, I'm going to get you connected to, it's on me, Bob.

Bob:

I

Josh:

gotta, I gotta make it.

Josh:

Have you,

Bob:

agile and color?

Bob:

Did you reach out to him?

Josh:

No.

Josh:

All right.

Josh:

So back to the episode.

Josh:

No, no, no, no.

Josh:

So listeners be Bob, don't be Josh.

Josh:

That's what this whole segment is about.

Josh:

Be Bob.

Bob:

No, no, no.

Bob:

All right.

Bob:

Back to the episode.

Bob:

How do I remember a story?

Bob:

You told it I'm at dude.

Bob:

Richard.

Bob:

So we, and we shared it on the Medicus many episodes ago.

Bob:

I think where years ago you didn't value ScrumMaster, Korea.

Bob:

Very highly.

Bob:

Yeah.

Bob:

And, and then at some point, You flipped on that and you saw the value.

Bob:

I think Richard showed you the value or others showed you the

Bob:

value, but what, what was it?

Bob:

Because that's another thing.

Bob:

So in order to survive, so yes, it's about the team, but you need to be,

Bob:

so Bridget needs some hints around.

Bob:

What should people see in you to value you right.

Bob:

Team results?

Bob:

Is there something else, like what, what stood out to you years ago?

Bob:

What sold you?

Bob:

Yeah.

Josh:

I had never seen a really good strong scrum master in action because w

Josh:

everywhere I was, it was the scrum master.

Josh:

And so they were a scrum master and a developer or, and a test or something

Josh:

like that, not fully dedicated to us.

Josh:

So I never saw.

Josh:

What that could do, even though I was a very agile centric person.

Josh:

What Richard showed

Bob:

was

Josh:

that he owned, he owned the team's success and was willing to jump

Josh:

in anywhere anyhow, to help them, them improve and work directly with them.

Josh:

One-on-one he would pull somebody aside and pair with their manager and.

Josh:

Just work them through challenges to help them become a better

Josh:

teammate, help them understand.

Josh:

And it was a relentless pursuit of team excellence.

Josh:

And that's something that I have that I always drive myself and

Josh:

my teams with, but I too wasn't.

Josh:

And so I was a leader.

Josh:

The agile coach for everybody.

Josh:

Yeah.

Josh:

And then I saw the beauty of a person focused on that and the

Josh:

power of change and improvement that, that could drive the force of

Bob:

his will.

Bob:

Yeah.

Bob:

Yes.

Bob:

So there is a, you know, we talk about, so there's this subtleness

Bob:

to it that it's all about the team.

Bob:

And it's about a coaching role, et cetera, but there's also like this

Bob:

personal level of intensity or yeah.

Bob:

Or focus.

Bob:

Yeah.

Bob:

And

Bob:

that

Josh:

was Richard, right?

Josh:

He, he had the courage to talk about.

Josh:

There was nothing he wouldn't say right.

Josh:

There were times that might've got up in trouble upstream, but for the

Josh:

teams, there was nothing that he wouldn't say because he believed

Josh:

that would help them become better.

Josh:

And it didn't matter how uncomfortable it was.

Josh:

He knew it was his responsibility.

Josh:

That if he didn't just like I talked about a while back that if he didn't take action

Josh:

on that moment, it was lost forever.

Josh:

And the team has just slid back and they didn't even know it,

Bob:

personal, the word memorable came to my mind as you were talking to you,

Bob:

the team needs to drive results and it's a servant role, but you need to,

Bob:

you need to leave behind footprints of memorable menace where people say.

Bob:

W where they get that, the role that you're playing, I'm sort of

Bob:

asking, but it's, it's this, and it's really subtle because it's not about

Bob:

you, but it is about you, right?

Bob:

So it is about, so I think scrum masters have to walk this line

Bob:

of it's all about the team.

Bob:

But it's, but it's in, it's equally all about what are you doing?

Bob:

Yeah.

Bob:

And are people recognizing what are you doing?

Bob:

Impact?

Bob:

Yeah.

Bob:

It's

Josh:

a leadership role.

Josh:

Yeah.

Josh:

You don't win unless the team wins, but you're not a part of the team.

Josh:

So you have to figure out how you can influence how

Bob:

team and how you can shine, how you can.

Bob:

Yeah.

Bob:

And it's, it's a really, it's sort of a challenging walk to walk, right?

Bob:

Yeah.

Bob:

Yep.

Bob:

And that's actually, it's intangible.

Bob:

I think a lot of scrum masters and even coaches.

Bob:

There's there's sort of this weird thing of how do I get measured?

Bob:

And I say this as a coach, well, you measure my results in the

Bob:

organization or you measure my results in the team, but there's also

Bob:

something like, how am I showing up?

Bob:

Like, there's two measures.

Bob:

Like, what is Bob's persona?

Bob:

What is he doing?

Bob:

Right.

Bob:

Do I feel, do I have confidence in him, et cetera?

Bob:

Does he have the right mindset?

Bob:

And then there's the impact?

Bob:

I think there's the same thing, but

Josh:

I don't worry about that.

Bob:

But I think, but I think Bridget has to, I think Bridget has to

Bob:

not worry about it, but be aware, be aware of it or scrum masters.

Josh:

I don't, I don't think so.

Josh:

To me, to me, you focus on that team getting better.

Josh:

And when that happens, it's clear how that happened.

Josh:

The team will recognize your importance and the difference that you've made.

Josh:

Didn't happen.

Josh:

If it just was luck, it'll be clear that maybe you didn't play a large role.

Josh:

All of

Bob:

that, but yeah, I'm going to, I'm going to disagree.

Bob:

Agree.

Bob:

Exciting.

Bob:

No, but I, I, I'm not just, I think you're a big bombastic.

Bob:

Yes.

Bob:

Verbal.

Bob:

Yeah.

Bob:

Fricking leader.

Bob:

Yeah.

Bob:

Right?

Bob:

Yeah.

Bob:

Like you, you, you cannot be missed in an organization.

Bob:

Right.

Bob:

That's Josh Anderson and I'm not just picking on your size, it's your persona.

Bob:

Right.

Bob:

So, so, so, so

Josh:

there is two sides.

Josh:

Understand.

Josh:

Okay.

Josh:

Yeah.

Josh:

That makes sense.

Josh:

I gotcha.

Josh:

Right.

Bob:

Not everyone has that big bombastic.

Bob:

Yeah, right.

Bob:

Like Richard under a different manager may not have read another leader, may not have

Bob:

recognized the difference he was making.

Bob:

Right.

Bob:

I got ya.

Bob:

So all I'm saying I'm, I'm, I'm agreeing and I think you have to be aware of how

Bob:

am I landing, how am I being present as a scrum master and are people aware

Bob:

of the role, You naturally, I get that.

Bob:

Yeah.

Bob:

I I'm naturally I don't plan on it.

Bob:

I get it.

Bob:

You get it.

Bob:

But I don't think everyone gets, has that persona.

Bob:

Yeah.

Bob:

And that's the additional, that's the, I don't know the guidance,

Bob:

something about react to that.

Josh:

You're you're right with that lens.

Josh:

You're right.

Josh:

Especially as you're starting.

Josh:

Yeah.

Josh:

And, and, you know, we likely don't suffer from.

Josh:

The imposter on his

Bob:

privileged Rome, the word that I'm thinking of, we have,

Bob:

we build up that privilege.

Bob:

Yeah.

Josh:

Over decades of doing this, talking to a kajillion people on all of that.

Josh:

We, we, we feel different when we walk into a room cause we've

Josh:

been doing it for 20 years.

Josh:

Someone that's new in that.

Josh:

I get it.

Josh:

And yes you do.

Josh:

You do need it all.

Bob:

I'm saying all I'm saying many casters is be aware.

Bob:

So you may have to take a front and center view every once in a while.

Bob:

You may have to more subtly, you know, like put yourself in front of the team.

Bob:

Occasionally, whatever that means, be more.

Bob:

Be more transparent across the organization to gain competence,

Bob:

to, to, to maybe talk about what you've accomplished.

Bob:

Like it didn't just magically happen.

Bob:

Right by, right.

Bob:

It's like, oh, look, this team went through the roof.

Bob:

You know what, you know, you may want to like, run your flag up the pole with

Bob:

people and say, you know, I did play this.

Bob:

Didn't just magically happened.

Bob:

It was hard work on the part of the team.

Bob:

And it was hard work on my part as well.

Bob:

Yeah.

Bob:

Here, here, and here.

Bob:

And just remind

Josh:

folks of that.

Josh:

You are correct.

Josh:

The one thing that I believe has gotten harder about the scrum master

Josh:

job is as agile has proliferating.

Josh:

Big words for Josh today,

Bob:

you are, you are on fire and they pronounce them reasonably well.

Bob:

And when I hit you and I'm not even going to try it, but when he

Bob:

hit you with the bird joke, you came back with the cryptologist.

Bob:

Oh my God.

Bob:

You're you're like, who

Josh:

are you?

Josh:

I don't know.

Josh:

Maybe it, like I had raisin bran support.

Josh:

I know the raisins.

Josh:

It was the breakfast you had.

Josh:

So the thing that has just made the job messier and harder is that

Josh:

everyone thinks they know agile.

Josh:

And so as the, as the flag bearer of agile for your team and for your

Josh:

company, this is an important point.

Josh:

You are going to get so many people that will say, well, that's not

Josh:

agile, or what we're doing is agile or whatever, whatever, whatever.

Josh:

And now it's become this continual onslaught of folks that have worked

Josh:

in places where there was a deranged version of agile you had in their mind.

Josh:

And now you're trying to run what you believe to be a more appropriate version

Josh:

of agile, but they have five years of what they believe to be, what agile should be.

Josh:

And so then you bring people from all over together as you build and grow a team

Josh:

and then executives, you know, that's it.

Josh:

You are going to have to educate.

Josh:

And defend and baseline people on what agile is.

Josh:

So I think that's one of those things is you can start to measure those times when

Josh:

people speak up and say, well, this is an agile, or what we're doing is agile.

Josh:

And over time as you do your job and do it well, those should disappear except

Josh:

for maybe the new people that you.

Bob:

That's a beautiful comment.

Bob:

I mean, Medicare says it's, it's really important is like measuring

Bob:

against what and part of the scrum masters job before you even talk

Bob:

about performance or measurement is have you established a baseline of

Bob:

understanding in order to, as a, as a foundation and it's, as a coach, I have

Bob:

to do that as a leader, we have to do.

Bob:

And it's getting increasingly more difficult to do that, right?

Bob:

Yeah.

Josh:

Yeah.

Josh:

'cause you, you, you end up with a bunch of Monday morning quarterbacks and I

Josh:

having played football at the level that I played at and being coached by some of

Josh:

the best coaches that are out there now.

Josh:

When I sit in the stands or I'm watching a game with someone.

Josh:

Or in a group or in a bar to hear these people say things, it's like, oh, that

Josh:

hurts my ears, please don't say that.

Josh:

And the same thing will happen to you because now everybody

Josh:

believes they know what agile is.

Josh:

Just like, everybody believes that they know what that player should

Josh:

have done in whatever sport, even though they probably never done it.

Josh:

But that's, that's, that's your job now is you are, again, I always

Josh:

think of you are that flag bear that's out front for, for agile.

Josh:

And like, this is our flag.

Josh:

This is who we are.

Josh:

This

Bob:

is who we're going to.

Bob:

Everyone's assumption of what it is.

Bob:

Yeah.

Bob:

Yes.

Bob:

Right?

Bob:

Yeah.

Bob:

And, and so you can try to establish a baseline, but you're

Bob:

still, you also have to navigate.

Bob:

And even get personal solace and say, I'm never going to, you know, I'm

Bob:

never going to please everyone with the instance of Angela's is how do I, how

Bob:

do I just sort of aggregate this stuff?

Bob:

Yeah, man, I think you nailed that one.

Bob:

I hadn't even been thinking about that.

Bob:

That's that's challenging for me.

Bob:

Yeah.

Bob:

Yeah.

Bob:

And it never goes away.

Bob:

It's like these Monday morning, I think drives me crazy these Monday

Bob:

morning quarterbacks and it, it affects your, it direct, like what

Bob:

they think is something that's mine.

Bob:

I think is something that's important, but then, then, you know, they're measuring,

Bob:

why are you worrying about that?

Bob:

You need to be like, you know, why are, why don't we have smaller

Bob:

stories or something like that.

Bob:

Right.

Bob:

So it's the pre, so it's not just terminology, it's even the

Bob:

prioritization of what, what they think we should be focusing on

Bob:

versus, and what impacts versus

Josh:

what really.

Josh:

And, and, and what's happening now is there's so many views.

Josh:

That you don't need to try and change everybody's mind because if you try

Josh:

and do that, you'll do nothing else.

Josh:

So I often talk about, okay, you're on the field.

Josh:

Yep.

Josh:

Is that person in the upper deck in the last row yelling and scream?

Josh:

Does that really matter?

Josh:

Versus is it the owner?

Josh:

Is it the, whatever the director of player, like people that really make a

Josh:

difference or are they just somebody up in the upper deck and they're yelling and

Josh:

screaming because they've had a few beers.

Josh:

That's fine.

Josh:

Let it go.

Josh:

That's fine.

Josh:

It doesn't, it doesn't matter.

Josh:

So really understanding when you need to do that.

Josh:

And when you don't, so definitely do not try and fight the war of

Josh:

answering every question across your organization because you will do nothing.

Josh:

Yeah.

Bob:

I could probably wrap it up with this one.

Bob:

I'd say outstanding reviews and meaning.

Bob:

So I'm bringing it back to the ultimate measure is the team and the ultimate

Bob:

measure is, are we producing results?

Bob:

Not how many points, but are we delivering value?

Bob:

And are we bringing joy, you know, joy to the team, joy to the

Bob:

organization, like energy to the organization, are people getting

Bob:

excited when we show stuff, et cetera.

Bob:

So I'm thinking that ultimately as a scrum master, Like that, that sprint review

Bob:

as a, as a defining moment of all the other stuff, is that that's the show.

Bob:

What do you think?

Bob:

What is the emotion there?

Bob:

What's the value in there?

Bob:

What's the tenor in there?

Bob:

What's the feedback what's.

Bob:

Yeah.

Josh:

So I've been working with ThoughtWorks for a couple of months

Josh:

now, and they shared a term with me that I've fallen in love with

Josh:

and they now call it a showcase.

Josh:

Yeah, I like that.

Josh:

So it changes the tone of what that's about.

Josh:

We are here to showcase what we've done, a sprint review.

Josh:

Doesn't, doesn't give you that same.

Josh:

Like we're here to like show off.

Bob:

It's a big deal,

Josh:

but that is ultimately what you want your team to be able to

Josh:

do is to be excited about what they built and what they've done and have

Josh:

the opportunity to, to show it off.

Josh:

So I think that's one of those things.

Josh:

That's a small thing, but I think just changing the mindset.

Josh:

Of that is a huge

Bob:

difference.

Bob:

So what's happening.

Bob:

So a lot of these, you know, coming back everything we said, I really, I really

Bob:

feel good about, but that final cherry on top is from the T you know, what

Bob:

measures the team, it's the showcase.

Bob:

Right.

Bob:

and it's not, it don't, don't focus on points.

Bob:

Don't focus on stories, focus on excitement, focus.

Bob:

Yes.

Bob:

As you're delivering things, but focus on the tenor, the feedback, You

Bob:

know, are people getting emotional?

Bob:

Are they getting excited about what you're doing?

Bob:

Like you would in a showcase, there's the home showcase around here, right?

Bob:

Where you, they showcase the fancy homes and they get, oh, you know,

Bob:

you hear hoes and Oz and stuff.

Bob:

It may take you a little while to get there, but that's having that vision.

Bob:

I think that's the one, you know, not a hundred metrics, but

Bob:

it's at one, one event what's

Josh:

going on.

Josh:

It ultimately boils down to delivering value.

Josh:

Yeah.

Josh:

That's why I wanted

Bob:

to bring this back circle, circle to that.

Bob:

Yep.

Bob:

All right.

Bob:

We good?

Bob:

I think so.

Bob:

Hey.

Bob:

All right.

Bob:

So from beautiful downtown Cary, North Carolina, I'm Bob gamble, Peterson

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Josh Anderson

Josh Anderson is a seasoned software professional with a passion for agile methodologies and continuous improvement. As one of the hosts of The Meta-Cast podcast, Josh brings his wealth of experience and expertise to the table. With a knack for practical advice and a penchant for engaging storytelling, Josh captivates listeners with his insights on agile methodology, team dynamics, and software development best practices. His infectious enthusiasm and dedication to helping others succeed make him a valuable resource for aspiring software professionals.
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Bob Galen

Bob Galen is a recognized industry leader and an authority on agile practices and software architecture. With years of hands-on experience, Bob brings a wealth of knowledge and expertise to The Meta-Cast podcast. As a co-host, he delves into topics ranging from agile fluency to organizational transformations, providing listeners with invaluable insights and strategies. Bob's charismatic and humorous style, combined with his ability to simplify complex concepts, makes him a fan-favorite among software professionals seeking guidance on navigating the challenges of agile development. His passion for continuous learning and his dedication to helping teams succeed shine through in each episode of the podcast.

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Lisa $10
Thank you both for sharing all your insight. It's been extremely valuable to me.