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Episode 213

213 - The Relubrication Episode

Yep. You read that correctly.

Old engines get rusty and often need some fresh oil. How can you oil your agile engine? We cover a handful of scenarios and ideas to fix each of them. Has your team seized up and needs to be fixed? Let's discuss!

Key Links From This Episode:

Look beyond the team first - https://rgalen.com/agile-training-news/2021/12/16/underperforming-development-team

Re-energize (ReLube) your team as a PO - https://rgalen.com/agile-training-news/2016/5/22/a-dozen-ways-a-product-owner-can-re-energize-their-team

The Agile Disciples meeting - https://www.eventbrite.com/e/avoiding-agile-mediocrity-aka-becoming-a-badass-agile-coach-tickets-239737379957

Keep The Conversation Going:

We love our community. We love interacting with our community even more, and our Discord server is the place for that! Give us feedback, bring up topic ideas, or just ask a few questions. We're here to help! Join our community now!

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This podcast uses the following third-party services for analysis:

Chartable - https://chartable.com/privacy
Transcript
Bob:

Ah, I just, I'm always happy to see you, man.

Bob:

That's what it is.

Bob:

It's just joy.

Bob:

Yeah.

Bob:

Join the Vive.

Bob:

What the hell?

Bob:

I don't know the joy of living John.

Josh:

Bob.

Josh:

Have you re lubricated your vocal chords?

Bob:

I just did Josh.

Bob:

No.

Josh:

So for those of you that maybe didn't know as we go to

Josh:

start every episode Bob's joking and his normal boisterous self.

Josh:

He's all over the place.

Josh:

Then he gets this, like all of a sudden let's go, let's go.

Josh:

Let's go.

Josh:

And then he takes a drink of something.

Josh:

So we can't actually go

Bob:

immediately, but I'm losing my voice.

Bob:

I'm getting ready.

Bob:

Okay.

Josh:

I got you.

Josh:

So the reason why that's important is because today is

Josh:

the re lubrication episode.

Josh:

Ooh, what the

Bob:

hell?

Bob:

Ooh.

Bob:

Jiffy lube.

Bob:

Yeah, baby.

Bob:

Yes.

Josh:

Okay.

Josh:

So can you explain, because

Bob:

this was your idea.

Bob:

No.

Bob:

We talked about in the last Medi-Cal Josh, it was our, we

Bob:

co-created this idea, you know,

Josh:

the re lubrication concept was, it

Bob:

did not come from you.

Bob:

I know for sure about,

Josh:

so can you explain

Bob:

the Genesis of that?

Bob:

So the Genesis was, you know, we were talking about teams that have

Bob:

lost their mojo or lost their energy.

Bob:

And I think I brought up something about like relieving themselves or

Bob:

reenergizing themselves, or how do you, how do you reduce the friction?

Bob:

What is.

Bob:

And there's a lot of there's a lot of it could be organizational friction,

Bob:

it could be management, friction.

Bob:

It could be it could be team turnover.

Bob:

It could be it could be distributed like virtual teams could be part of

Bob:

the losing their mojo, et cetera.

Bob:

So I met a casters that I think is the essence of this, is this episode is how

Bob:

do you, how do you, re-engage your teams?

Bob:

What are some ideas around re you know, sort of minimizing the.

Bob:

How do you like that?

Bob:

Yeah, that's fine.

Bob:

Like friction minimalization.

Bob:

Well, but say that five times, John, not even gonna try.

Bob:

Remember, there was an episode a few times back where you repeated something

Bob:

that you would use in my face and you did

Josh:

it well, it's because you

Bob:

challenged me.

Bob:

You had to step up and you, and, and there was like a fourth time and

Bob:

then you had to go for a five, right?

Bob:

You said, say it five times.

Bob:

I know.

Bob:

And you

Josh:

did.

Josh:

So I, as you were talking through that, I kind of pictured an engine that had seized

Josh:

up or maybe a gotten rusty and that's a cool, and the reason it became that

Josh:

way was because it stopped getting used.

Josh:

So that doesn't mean you're not doing agile, but maybe you're not doing

Josh:

the core of agile, which is always trying to improve with every sprint.

Josh:

Like maybe you've gotten stale there and that part of the engine has

Josh:

seized up because you haven't as aggressively lubricated that part

Josh:

of your process, where we're always looking for ways to get better.

Josh:

It's like, Hey, we're good at.

Josh:

And you just kind of settle in and I've seen a lot of teams.

Josh:

Heck I've been a part of teams that have done that, where we just kind

Josh:

of hit our stride, but in hitting our stride, we kind of lose who we are

Josh:

a little bit and just kind of like

Bob:

coast.

Bob:

I think complacency is one of those things.

Bob:

And, and what I want to say is there's, there's a natural, I wouldn't say.

Bob:

And we've talked about this.

Bob:

So I think in the Medicare space for that, that when you're doing

Bob:

continuous improvement, it's hard.

Bob:

So it's okay to peek out and take a break.

Bob:

I think like there's an S curve, right?

Bob:

You like, we start and then we accelerate with continuous improvement, but then,

Bob:

you know, if that goes on for you.

Bob:

The team may just get tired with continuous improvement.

Bob:

So allow, allow that yourselves, all the team to do that.

Bob:

So we're not talking about that.

Bob:

That to me is not, there's a normalcy to it.

Bob:

Yeah.

Bob:

There's a normalcy to people blowing leaves outside of my window.

Bob:

Right, right, right.

Bob:

As we start to record as we start to record.

Bob:

So, but it's, it's, it's the abnormal part of that.

Bob:

It's the complacency part of that.

Bob:

Like it goes on for too long.

Bob:

If I got flat, that flat period goes on for too long.

Bob:

I've seen teams that never really achieved the acceleration as well.

Bob:

They, they do a little bit, but they really never sort of get

Bob:

that acceleration, retrospective.

Bob:

I would, I would throw on the table that the retro might be a peak part

Bob:

of that or a central that's a huge

Josh:

indicator.

Josh:

Yeah.

Josh:

Of what your engines do.

Josh:

It.

Josh:

You know, because to Bob's point, you can't have the pedal to the metal 24 7,

Josh:

and not expect the engine to blow up.

Josh:

So you have to give it a break, but also if you leave it idle for

Josh:

too long, Something's going to happen because it's idle and it's

Josh:

not doing what it needs to do.

Josh:

So that's where those peaks and valleys can and should happen because that's

Josh:

what we all need to be able to accelerate because acceleration is really a thing.

Josh:

Right.

Josh:

But yeah, so it's, it's, that's always an indicator.

Josh:

Like that's one of the things that when I'm coaching, that's one of the

Josh:

most interesting ceremonies or events or whatever the proper term is now.

Josh:

That I want to see you.

Josh:

I want to see that dialogue.

Josh:

I want to see how thoughtful and truly retrospective that team is because that

Josh:

gives you a window into the likelihood of them not needing extra lubrication.

Bob:

Right?

Bob:

Right.

Bob:

I think one thing.

Bob:

Sort of one, one way to look for it.

Bob:

I look, I think of Energizer bunnies.

Bob:

So that's a, that's a us thing where there's this battery commercial

Bob:

where there's Energizer batteries and one way to break out of it.

Bob:

I don't think teams teams can break out of it, but I think you need like a spark.

Bob:

Right now I typically will like a coach or a scrum master could be a spark.

Bob:

A leader might be a spark or an individual team member might be a spark.

Bob:

So I rarely see like the entire team one day is they're complacent.

Bob:

And then suddenly everyone gets energized at the same time.

Bob:

Right.

Bob:

And they start accelerating.

Bob:

It normally takes like an event or an internal sort of person.

Bob:

To recognize it.

Bob:

And he would stand up in a retrospective and call the team out or challenge

Bob:

themselves or, or do something.

Bob:

How would you buy that as a way to break out, to break out of the complacency?

Bob:

Yes.

Josh:

Yeah.

Josh:

That's one of the things we've talked about a bajillion and that's

Josh:

a technical term, but Gillian times here, someone has to have the courage

Josh:

to say, folks, this is not good enough.

Josh:

We are better than this.

Josh:

Let's snap out of it and get back to who we are.

Josh:

And usually.

Josh:

That's easier to see from the outside.

Josh:

So that's where, to your point, the coach wouldn't, you know,

Bob:

I would buy that actually that's a, that's a twist on it.

Bob:

So it needs a spark plug and an outside spark plug is usually.

Bob:

You know, w not better, but, but there, it's more visible to the

Bob:

outside than it is inside out.

Bob:

It's outside in.

Bob:

Yeah.

Bob:

It's all

Josh:

forest for the trees thing.

Josh:

Right?

Josh:

You're so deep in it that it's hard for you to be able to take that

Josh:

step back and say, wait a minute, what are we doing this season?

Josh:

This isn't us.

Bob:

I do think there's like a principle thing.

Bob:

I want to bounce this off of you and see, it's not a principle thing, but I talked

Bob:

to leaders, I do leadership training and I talk about the responsibility

Bob:

that leaders have to bring it every day.

Bob:

That doesn't mean they can't have a bad day, right?

Bob:

Like they can have a bad day.

Bob:

They can have something happening in their lives where they need to handle it.

Bob:

But in general, over a year, over the course of a year, leaving.

Bob:

Almost independent of what's going on in their life.

Bob:

They have, they have a responsibility to bring it.

Bob:

I wonder if some of that can, and if you don't like get out of a leadership

Bob:

business, I'm wondering if there's something similar in teams and energizing

Bob:

teams where you have to remind the team of like the responsibility you

Bob:

have as a team member to bring it.

Bob:

What do you think is, is it, is it inherently the same

Bob:

or is that just for leaders?

Josh:

I think.

Josh:

We always talk about as a leader, you have to model the behavior you're

Josh:

looking to see from within your team.

Josh:

So as a, as an external leader, as not a member of the team,

Josh:

you absolutely have to do that.

Josh:

I think really, truly high, efficient, high output teams have someone inside

Josh:

of the team that operates that same way.

Josh:

I don't believe it's fair to expect everybody to have that because

Josh:

there's just different personalities.

Bob:

Let me challenge you.

Bob:

I want to bring football into it.

Bob:

Yeah.

Bob:

So you, you were playing, you were practicing right at Cincinnati

Bob:

and you came onto the field.

Bob:

you know, I'm okay to do.

Bob:

Right.

Bob:

And you joined your type, the tight ends and you joined the offensive

Bob:

line and you were going through practices and, and you were, you were

Bob:

just meeting, you were barely there.

Bob:

You were, you were, is that okay?

Bob:

Was it okay or did you have to, is that.

Josh:

Yeah.

Josh:

If you want to play, you have to operate at that 24 7.

Josh:

You got

Bob:

to bring it.

Bob:

Yeah.

Bob:

Right.

Bob:

And it's, and it's from the inside out is what I'm saying.

Bob:

Yes.

Bob:

Right.

Bob:

You know?

Bob:

No one's going to coax you, right.

Bob:

I mean, they're you're know your coach might

Josh:

yell at you.

Josh:

Well, no, the coach will put

Bob:

somebody else in.

Bob:

Yeah, right?

Bob:

Yeah.

Bob:

You've talked about that in the piece.

Bob:

It's pretty vicious, right?

Bob:

Yeah.

Bob:

100%.

Bob:

Yeah.

Bob:

I mean, performance.

Bob:

It's not vicious.

Bob:

It's performance.

Bob:

Yeah.

Bob:

Performance counts.

Bob:

I can see where the Energizer bunnies work, but I almost, what

Bob:

I'm saying, what I'm thinking is high-performance agile teams or teams

Bob:

that are relieving people in the morning when they get up, need to look

Bob:

themselves in the mirror and different personality types, different cultures.

Bob:

I get the yes.

Bob:

Yes, but, but w however, get yourself up and enter the arena.

Bob:

We'll get you enter the arena with the right mindset.

Bob:

I wonder if that's a part of it.

Bob:

All right.

Bob:

I, I,

Josh:

I would like to retract my statement.

Josh:

I, I do agree with you that for 18 to be that team we all aspire to

Josh:

have, or be a part of everyone has to have that, that view to your

Josh:

point, there are going to be days.

Josh:

What it's not a good day for you and

Bob:

that's, and that's, I'm not looking for a hundred, you embrace

Bob:

that, but I'm talking about the average, like over the course of a month,

Bob:

you had 29 bad ones in one bedroom.

Bob:

That's probably not a good enough.

Bob:

Yeah.

Bob:

And

Josh:

going back to the personality types, the personality type doesn't matter me.

Josh:

I'm just like retracting everything.

Josh:

I said the personality type doesn't matter.

Josh:

When you're modeling the right behavior, right?

Josh:

Whether you're outspoken, you're introvert, this is the, this

Josh:

is the bomb noise episode.

Josh:

We're going to, we're going to rename it.

Bob:

This is the noisy episode, medic casters.

Bob:

But, but I think I like the content so far, so hopefully you can overlook

Josh:

all the next week and let the dogs in and let them

Josh:

or not around the dogs out.

Josh:

Yeah.

Josh:

So it's it's dang it.

Josh:

I just really put my foot in my mouth like five minutes ago.

Bob:

No, I don't think you really, but,

Josh:

well, I think I did cause I'm like, I I'm truly doing a 180 on that.

Josh:

I wonder why it was going that direct.

Josh:

But yeah, that, that, that modeling.

Bob:

And it's be yourself.

Bob:

Yeah.

Bob:

Like an introvert, a quiet introvert newbie.

Bob:

I don't know what bring, it means.

Bob:

Figure it out.

Bob:

Right.

Bob:

But, but maybe that means you listen, maybe that means you

Bob:

grab someone and pair with them.

Bob:

Maybe they, I don't really care, but you're not disengaged.

Bob:

Exactly.

Bob:

So what, doesn't it look like?

Bob:

You're not disengaged.

Bob:

You're not blaming.

Bob:

You're not lackadaisical.

Bob:

You're not waiting for someone who would fight.

Bob:

To do work.

Bob:

Right.

Bob:

You're you're like leaning in to whatever degree that's comfortable for you.

Bob:

Yeah.

Josh:

Yeah.

Josh:

And your team will be most successful if they can do that themselves.

Josh:

Yes.

Josh:

There's times when maybe an outside coach, they're going to notice it sooner

Josh:

or something like that, but ultimately.

Josh:

For those truly self-sustaining self-driven teams that has to happen.

Bob:

I just ran a class, I'm running a class, a leadership class.

Bob:

So I ran a cow class for a client and for leaders at the client and they had

Bob:

this epiphany of can we, they liked it.

Bob:

They liked the dynamics and they said, can we run the teams through

Bob:

it through a one day version of.

Bob:

And, and I, I was trying to figure out what that is.

Bob:

And part of it is communication.

Bob:

So part of it is radical.

Bob:

Candor is part of it to help the teams figure out how to

Bob:

communicate more effectively.

Bob:

And I was, I was really concerned because there's like five classes.

Bob:

And so we're running it through like 90 people.

Bob:

And, you know, there's a few leaders in the class, but it's like

Bob:

mostly individual contributors.

Bob:

And I was wondering.

Bob:

Like would it resonate?

Bob:

Right?

Bob:

Cause it's a leadership class.

Bob:

I mean, the content is now.

Bob:

I, you know, I started off each class saying we're all leaders, you know,

Bob:

you've heard me talk about that pitch.

Bob:

Right.

Bob:

Ad nauseum.

Bob:

And I mean, it, it's not a pitch.

Bob:

We're all, we're all leaders, people are paying attention to you all the time.

Bob:

Right.

Bob:

You're leading when you're not leading.

Bob:

Right.

Bob:

They're watching you, your behavior, your attitude, and the I've run one class.

Bob:

And I have two more coming up.

Bob:

This.

Bob:

And so the first class, it resonated, it resonated better with the

Bob:

teams than it did with leaders.

Bob:

Usually they really got the fact that they were all leaders.

Bob:

They really like what we're talking about here.

Bob:

Like showing up, like it matters how you show up.

Bob:

You could see people thinking, we were talking about being

Bob:

more reflective taking.

Bob:

Inside out leadership, right?

Bob:

Yeah.

Bob:

You know, being conscious about how you show up being a conscious

Bob:

about walking your talk, et cetera.

Bob:

And I, I could see it, you know, I thought it wouldn't land at all and it really

Bob:

landed for folks now they weren't, they weren't thinking about the leadership

Bob:

stories they were thinking about how do I become a better team member.

Bob:

Right, exactly.

Bob:

Yeah.

Bob:

How do I.

Bob:

From myself from the position I have.

Bob:

And I thought it was the coolest thing.

Bob:

I hope, I hope that wasn't Napoli.

Bob:

I hope, I hope it resonates with you.

Bob:

Yeah.

Bob:

I don't think

Josh:

it would be because that's probably an eyeopening thought of how

Josh:

I, as a team member should operate as

Bob:

opposed to, you could see the aha in everyone's eyes

Bob:

because it was moving from.

Bob:

I I contribute to, I also influenced.

Bob:

Yeah.

Bob:

Right.

Bob:

Yeah.

Bob:

And it was very cool to see folks.

Josh:

That's what so many people want, but yet, so many organizations

Josh:

don't allow or empower that.

Josh:

So it's not, unfortunately it's not the first reflexive approach that people take.

Josh:

There've been so many times where I've even like just asked people what they

Josh:

thought or what they thought we should do.

Josh:

And like, w w why are you asking me?

Josh:

You're the director.

Josh:

I'm like, okay.

Josh:

So what, like, but you're part of the team.

Josh:

You're the one building it.

Josh:

What do you think?

Josh:

And they're like, no one's ever asked me that like, well, that's a

Josh:

problem, but we're changing that.

Bob:

It's so I think that's part of the Rilutek maybe mindset is what we're,

Bob:

what we're circling around is changing your personal mindset a little bit.

Bob:

And how you show up what other lube efforts I'm going to S what else?

Bob:

So we talked about spark plugs.

Bob:

We've talked about mindset.

Bob:

I think a

Josh:

common thing that can do that you can do, but some people go

Josh:

overboard with this is just change up the ceremonies a little bit.

Josh:

Don't allow them to be the same thing.

Josh:

For five years, I have been with teams where we've been doing things

Josh:

for three years and it just, and we were good and everybody was happy.

Josh:

The product was healthy.

Josh:

People enjoyed, like, it was a great place to work, but still

Josh:

like three years of doing the same thing, we're like, all right.

Josh:

Let's, let's just change how we do this to give the brain a little bit of a

Josh:

challenge and have it think differently about that moment that they've done.

Josh:

900 times or something.

Bob:

So experiment more if I could capture it.

Bob:

Yeah.

Bob:

Maybe like experiment with ceremonies in advance experiment with everything maybe.

Bob:

Yeah,

Josh:

don't go overboard.

Josh:

I have seen places where a scrum master does a different retro style.

Josh:

Every

Bob:

retro we've talked about that in the

Josh:

gas.

Josh:

And so then the first 15 minutes of.

Josh:

Hour or whatever you have planned the team's trying to figure out, okay, how

Josh:

the hell do I say what's not working?

Josh:

You know, so don't, don't, don't go crazy with it, but you

Josh:

need to do that every once in a

Bob:

while.

Bob:

What would be, it would give people some experimentation ideas.

Bob:

Why don't we drop some specifics?

Bob:

I would say pairing opportunities.

Bob:

So really look for, can you create T-shaped people and pair in different ways

Bob:

than you normally have in all directions?

Bob:

Right?

Bob:

Like testers into not just functional pairs, but cross-functional

Bob:

pairs and things like that.

Bob:

And, and don't do it.

Bob:

Don't do it, you know, holistically or religiously, but do it opportunistically.

Bob:

What else?

Bob:

What would be so pairing would be a good one.

Bob:

Having people do work that they're uncomfortable with.

Bob:

Oh yeah.

Bob:

Without a doubt.

Bob:

Yeah.

Bob:

Right.

Bob:

It's like take, take risks.

Bob:

Right.

Bob:

Cause people get into their comfort zone yeah.

Bob:

From a work perspective.

Bob:

So, so sort of mix it up, have, have a newbie, take a hard thing.

Bob:

This is a silly example.

Bob:

And having, having an experienced person take a trivial thing or

Bob:

something do do like by rote, right?

Bob:

Like I love it.

Bob:

I love it.

Bob:

When everyone on the team runs manual test cases.

Bob:

What's your mind numbing, right?

Bob:

Like manual running manual test cases.

Bob:

And they still exist in the world is, is not intellectually pleasing.

Bob:

It's mind numbing.

Bob:

So, but everyone says, well, the testers that's the testers job.

Bob:

Why doesn't everyone take some mind numbing work and it

Bob:

might make you more sensitive.

Bob:

It might.

Bob:

Yeah.

Bob:

You might have, you might actually be inspired to reduce

Bob:

the mind-numbing work in some way.

Bob:

Yeah.

Josh:

Yeah.

Josh:

That's the thing that I do because.

Josh:

I believe it's healthy for people's careers to expand the top of their tea and

Josh:

give them a little bit more experience and things that they aren't comfortable with.

Josh:

Now that doesn't mean so database expert I might not jump them all

Josh:

the way into like react native, but still I'd push them more towards the.

Josh:

Again, I think it does two things.

Josh:

It helps them learn and grow, helps them become more marketable in the future.

Josh:

But, but also it, it does give them empathy for their teammates

Josh:

that are working with there.

Josh:

And like that's a problem is I don't even like to say, well, it's

Josh:

your piece and your piece and your piece to me, it's everybody's piece.

Josh:

And I drive that across the team by making sure it's not always

Josh:

the same person that works on.

Josh:

The database, but when something's really hard, you're going to go

Josh:

to the database expert because it's like, let's get this right.

Josh:

But we can't, we don't want the silos.

Josh:

So that's a, that's a thing that you have to push.

Josh:

So definitely look around your team and see if you fall into that

Josh:

rut of everybody's doing the same.

Josh:

every sprint

Bob:

everyone should, everyone could do.

Bob:

As you know, everyone could do a spike.

Bob:

Yeah.

Bob:

Everyone could do a little bit of research, sometimes spikes land on just

Bob:

one or two people or more senior folks.

Bob:

Another experiment everyone is, is like, have, have multiple

Bob:

people play the scrum master role.

Bob:

Oh yeah.

Bob:

If it's okay with, I think it makes, and again, it goes back to

Bob:

what Josh was saying with empathy.

Bob:

We lose.

Bob:

I think you're a great team.

Bob:

If you do a stint as a scrum master, you become a much better team member.

Bob:

You might even be able to twist it and say, become a little

Bob:

bit of a mini product owner.

Bob:

Yeah.

Bob:

Like, like if there's an opportunity to do a presentation to an executive

Bob:

with the product owner, like see the kind of craft that they have to put

Bob:

up with builds your empathy, builds your muscle building, you know?

Bob:

Oh, the market is different than I thought it was.

Josh:

Yeah, teams, they're terrible at sprint planning.

Josh:

I, I rotate it across each, each member of the team to make

Josh:

them run that sprint planning.

Josh:

And then they see how painful it is when nobody's paying attention.

Josh:

No, one's investing all of that

Bob:

stuff.

Bob:

That's what, even the predictability, like I'm getting excited about this story.

Bob:

But having someone report out, like talk to a manager or talk to everyone, well,

Bob:

it's no estimates, you know, agile, we can't forecast stuff, get used to it.

Bob:

Well, someone on that team is talking to someone who doesn't buy that crap.

Bob:

Right.

Bob:

Usually it's an executive or something saying, yeah.

Bob:

Oh, I really appreciate that idea.

Bob:

But guess what?

Bob:

I have to talk to a board and I have to talk to customers and

Bob:

we have to forecast something.

Bob:

So understanding, I think building systems.

Bob:

Empathy is the more you can do that makes you a better team.

Bob:

Member, keeps things fresh, keeps your experiments.

Josh:

Yeah.

Josh:

One of the terms that I use for the types of teammates that I try to hire and or

Josh:

shape is commercially minded so that they really understand how the business works.

Josh:

Yep.

Josh:

One of the things that I am pretty passionate about going forward from here.

Josh:

Is finding ways for.

Josh:

The teams to be customers of their product.

Josh:

I think some of the best companies, some of the best products on ban are,

Josh:

are built by people that are customer.

Josh:

So think of Spotify, right?

Josh:

I am sure many people are on that team because they're passionate about music

Josh:

and passionate about their music and passionate about finding the next music.

Josh:

you think about GitHub, things like that, where again, every person is

Josh:

a consumer of that, and then you.

Josh:

You understand what it's like when something's busted as opposed to,

Josh:

well, yeah, like, you know, I'm sure it's hard for that end user somewhere

Josh:

in Southwest Texas that, you know, they can just, there's a workaround.

Josh:

They'll be

Bob:

fine.

Bob:

Yeah.

Bob:

I think, I mean, it, it's going back to this empathy thing we're talking about.

Bob:

I don't know if you could get frozen.

Bob:

You know, we're talking about re lubing.

Bob:

It's, it's harder to get frozen if you have that customer,

Bob:

that client mindset, right?

Bob:

It's like I'm serving them, right.

Bob:

I have a bug or they need a new design or et cetera.

Bob:

It's hard to be complacent with that.

Bob:

I mean, you can have those bad days.

Bob:

That's not what we're talking about, but if you have your eye on the, on

Bob:

the prize and if you're passionate about something, man, that's gonna,

Bob:

that's going to juice you up every day.

Bob:

That's going to get you excited every day.

Bob:

Did we cover it?

Bob:

I'm trying to think of what else?

Bob:

The cover to re-energize.

Bob:

So we said retros, I think we talked

Josh:

about a lot of symptoms I'd like to try and give some more actionable yeah.

Josh:

Things people can do.

Josh:

So we talked about pairing, rotating roles within the team.

Josh:

Not just like scrum master, but who's working on front end backend stuff.

Josh:

So mix that up working.

Josh:

Upstream with executives and customers and understanding the business of

Josh:

the business, potentially being a customer of your own product.

Josh:

I I'd

Bob:

say the product owner.

Bob:

One thing we didn't talk about is we talked about the team's responsibility

Bob:

to understand the outside.

Bob:

I think that the business has an, a responsibility of the product

Bob:

owner to explain the why and the intentionality to the team as well.

Bob:

Right.

Bob:

So it's not just the team searching for it, like, like

Bob:

get the CEO to come in and okay.

Bob:

Talk about the compelling, why are we doing this?

Bob:

Right?

Bob:

What's the, what's the problem we're trying to solve.

Bob:

And then continually iterate that.

Bob:

So I think product I'm picking on, not on picking on, I think it's a responsibility,

Bob:

there's a responsibility of the product owner of that team to not yell at the

Bob:

team or, you know, sort of pick on the team, but to energize the team.

Bob:

I w I wrote a blog post a while back.

Bob:

I think it was like 12 ways.

Bob:

A product owner can rip the soul out of a team or 12 ways.

Bob:

I think it was, I think it was actually re-energized, I'll send that to you

Bob:

to put on this, this Medi-Cal the product owner can, depending on how

Bob:

they show up to the team, they can generate a lot of energy to the team.

Bob:

Yeah.

Josh:

Welcome to our diversity inclusion minute,

Bob:

hold it.

Bob:

I need to take a drink, Josh.

Bob:

You can't do that.

Bob:

Hey everyone.

Bob:

So I'll jump in.

Bob:

There's there's a group, it's a new group and, they're called agile disciples.

Bob:

I think it's, it's a bunch of ScrumMasters and coaches not solely from Texas through.

Bob:

folks from Africa and Nigeria, I think there are a few, but a lot of

Bob:

the folks live in Texas and they're, they're trying to spin up a group.

Bob:

We talked about in the Medi-Cal, they're trying to spin up a group to give back

Bob:

to the community, so to learn, to become coaches themselves, but also to give back.

Bob:

So they're trying to do both sides of that and, I've, I've been trying to help

Bob:

them and they have a talk coming up.

Bob:

oh, I forget what day, but we'll get it in the link and I'm going to do a

Bob:

kickoff talking about coaching for them.

Bob:

So they invited me to say, can you do like an inaugural thing to get some energy?

Bob:

They're trying to create a group with some like a meetup

Bob:

group or something like that.

Bob:

They still don't have a website they're still forming.

Bob:

but that's what I'm involved with that and excited medic casters, someone

Bob:

don't get put off by the name disciples.

Bob:

So.

Bob:

So someone negatively commented on LinkedIn about it in his obnoxious

Bob:

name will remain nameless, but, you know, it's, it is a triggering term.

Bob:

Don't let it trigger.

Bob:

They're not religious and they're not, they might be religious.

Bob:

Yeah.

Bob:

But they're not, they're not, there's no intention.

Bob:

There's no intent to tie religion to agile in any way.

Bob:

Yeah.

Bob:

It's a term that really resonated with them.

Bob:

Yeah.

Josh:

Yep.

Josh:

So we're in the.

Josh:

Re lubrication episode.

Josh:

I think it's worth everybody hitting the pause button and looking at themselves

Josh:

and saying, do I need to read lubricate?

Josh:

My diversity and inclusion efforts have things gotten a little stale.

Josh:

I am one of those people, right?

Josh:

So that's, that's, I'm going to ask everybody to do that same thing

Josh:

and think about what can I do?

Josh:

We have great models like Bob gates.

Josh:

That's

Bob:

going to cry.

Bob:

No, I mean, your pivot, you just pivoted.

Bob:

I mean, I'm, I'm giving you a look and you're like, you know me?

Bob:

He's like, what is he thinking?

Bob:

No, Josh, you, you rock what?

Bob:

A role model you are and try it and try it.

Bob:

Oh, that's, I'm just like, I'm almost emotional.

Bob:

That's no, you pivoted and you're right.

Bob:

I think the Relu that episode, it applies perfectly to this stuff.

Bob:

Man.

Bob:

All right, nicely done.

Bob:

Back to the episode, back to the episode.

Josh:

The first thing I would do after listening to this episode is if

Josh:

I'm a team member, do I know the Y.

Josh:

Behind what we're building.

Josh:

So the feature we're working on right now, yes.

Josh:

You know, it's a new button on a screen that does a thing, but do you know how

Josh:

that makes your customer's life better?

Josh:

Do you understand the difference that that's going to make for them

Josh:

on a daily, weekly, monthly basis?

Josh:

if it, if you're not a member of the team, ask your team that, and if

Josh:

they don't know it, it's not there.

Josh:

It's yours.

Josh:

It's your job as the leader, the product owner, the whatever, it's your job to

Josh:

ensure that you connect that with them.

Josh:

So don't get mad if they don't know what to get mad at yourself, because

Josh:

you've, you missed the mark there.

Josh:

Now that doesn't mean the game's over, but you need to really

Josh:

push in and work harder at that.

Josh:

And that to me is step one, because that does invigorate people, that empathy that

Josh:

people have will ensure a better product.

Josh:

Oh, pops, furiously scribbling notes.

Bob:

No, no, no.

Bob:

I mean, so another actual thing idea I had is maybe in the

Bob:

retro is around the record.

Bob:

Do a, a quick poll.

Bob:

You could keep it confidential.

Bob:

If you wanted to buy like an NPS, like ask everyone, what is our, on a scale

Bob:

of one to 10, what is our, what is our passion or what is our bringing it

Bob:

proposition and just make it transparent.

Bob:

And then the next question would be depending on where

Bob:

the value is, what can we do?

Bob:

What can so focus the retro, not on other stuff, focus the

Bob:

retro on relieving the team.

Bob:

Right.

Bob:

And what's.

Bob:

What's our Luma Lubin nation metric right now.

Bob:

Where do we want to loop unify ourselves in the future?

Bob:

What has happened?

Josh:

It's just going to help.

Josh:

We go from leaf blowers outside to, Lubin.

Josh:

Very.

Josh:

Residential phone ringing

Josh:

like a classic.

Josh:

It plugs into the wall phone to Bob making up words.

Josh:

I don't know what's happening.

Josh:

Sorry,

Bob:

Bob.

Bob:

I know, I know.

Bob:

I know.

Bob:

I quit real quickly, judge.

Bob:

I have a telecom client.

Bob:

And we were having a zoom and that phone rang, they abused the

Bob:

crap out of me for that phone.

Bob:

And I deserved it actually.

Bob:

So the producers

Josh:

of the service that, that uses were

Bob:

laughing at you?

Bob:

Yes.

Bob:

Okay.

Bob:

Yeah.

Bob:

Okay.

Bob:

Yeah.

Bob:

So the, the other thing that.

Bob:

The other, the other thing I was saying that's related to this is Roman Pichler.

Bob:

Who's written a book about product ownership and he wrote a blog.

Bob:

I think I responded to it.

Bob:

So I'll send you some links to post.

Bob:

And he, he wrote a blog post that was he was picking on a team's performance.

Bob:

So a frozen team, a non lubed team.

Bob:

And he was talking about how to, how to attack the team, not attack, but

Bob:

how do you like addressing the team?

Bob:

And my response to him was I liked his article, but I was like, you

Bob:

know, it's not all about the team.

Bob:

So the morale of the team is related to the environment more than it is.

Bob:

So my response to him don't attack the team.

Bob:

The first thing is, is there anything in the organization that's minimizing

Bob:

the energy of the team then?

Bob:

Is there anything in the team's organization then, then look at

Bob:

management, organizational management.

Bob:

The teams managers then look at the team.

Bob:

So instead of starting with the team and I, and, and medic casters, don't I want

Bob:

the team should take ownership of this.

Bob:

Yes.

Bob:

But I think in parallel, it's look at your organizational ecosystem and check.

Bob:

Are there things in our, in our sort of atmosphere that are causing us to freeze

Bob:

and try to eradicate those as well?

Bob:

What do you, what do you think about that?

Bob:

So it's, it's that directional view.

Bob:

I

Josh:

agree.

Josh:

Right?

Josh:

That's that's a, that's a leader.

Josh:

And going back to sports, you never, never is probably incorrect.

Josh:

You very rarely see a coach and a press conference.

Josh:

Not say it's his fault.

Bob:

Yeah.

Bob:

Right.

Bob:

As a

Josh:

leader, it's your fault.

Josh:

Whether you're a leader within the team, whether you're a leader of the teams,

Josh:

whether you're a leader of the company, everybody has to think about it like that.

Josh:

And.

Josh:

One of the things that you can do is this read lubrication

Josh:

because it's just like your car, it needs the regular maintenance.

Josh:

You can't let it go stay like this for a long time.

Josh:

So you have to keep these efforts focused because what you'll end up

Josh:

with is a car that's broken down

Bob:

the new dorm, right.

Bob:

It becomes the new norm and you don't even know.

Bob:

That the car is broken or, you know, I remember I had these old, you

Bob:

know, six cylinders and sometimes like a cylinder would freeze.

Bob:

Like I had a six cylinder engine and we, but when I took the mechanic, he's

Bob:

like, you're only running on like four cylinders of the 600 and like this one's

Bob:

broken totally or frozen, et cetera.

Bob:

So, but you don't, you know, that it's spitting, you know, that it's not

Bob:

there, but you sort of get used to.

Bob:

And yeah, I agree with that.

Bob:

That's the complacency.

Bob:

You, you, I think the energy medic casters is not so much how you

Bob:

accelerate, but that you recognize that you're not where you need to be,

Bob:

and you're doing something about it.

Bob:

Yeah.

Josh:

There's a, there's a million things you can do.

Josh:

And I think you're gonna have a hard time being wrong when you're

Josh:

trying to keep the lubrication going.

Josh:

The fact that you, and talk about it, say why we're doing this.

Josh:

So put it out front, that'll connect with people.

Josh:

And then they'll again, you're modeling the beach.

Josh:

Yep.

Bob:

One final re lube thing is do, I would say do it.

Bob:

Right.

Bob:

So I think when we're unloaded and we're frozen, We're not just complacent,

Bob:

but we'll, we'll whack out a story.

Bob:

We'll ignore a definite we'll we'll ignore an acceptance criteria.

Bob:

We'll do shabby.

Bob:

We lose, I, my observation is teams lose their pride in craftsmanship as they

Bob:

lose their energy and their passion.

Bob:

And, and, and so that's another thing of ratchet up the crap.

Bob:

Like rat ratchet up the unit testing, ratchet up, you know, we talked about

Bob:

pairing like technical practices.

Bob:

What, what, what do you, what do you think I'm, I'm, I'm really

Bob:

thinking like the making sure do.

Bob:

Right.

Bob:

You know, don't, don't just throw things out the door do last, but

Bob:

what you do is excellent work.

Bob:

Yeah.

Josh:

I was raised on and live by the, do it, right.

Josh:

Do it late.

Josh:

Yeah.

Josh:

Like if you just do it right the first time.

Josh:

Yeah.

Josh:

It's a lot easier, you know?

Josh:

So that, that, that was a thing that was drilled into my head

Josh:

and that I use with my kids.

Josh:

Right.

Josh:

Like we, like, we talk about, well, Let's do it right.

Josh:

Do it light and let's just knock them out and do it.

Josh:

I

Bob:

would like to add that to that, you know, that net promoter score

Bob:

thing, I was suggesting, maybe that's a value on a scale of one to 10.

Bob:

How, how often are we doing it?

Bob:

Right.

Bob:

Right.

Bob:

Like, like, are we proud?

Bob:

And are we proud and doing it right.

Bob:

And where are we agreed just to make that transparent.

Bob:

Did we nailed it?

Bob:

How do we do on this one?

Bob:

What do you think.

Josh:

I feel good about it.

Josh:

I mean, aside from the sound effects that were added at the Galen residents,

Josh:

I think those are not sound effects, machines that we've added into the

Bob:

podcast, that there was I've met a kisser.

Bob:

So there was a, a leaf blower outside and he, he or she was breaking relentless.

Bob:

You heard that Bob

Josh:

unknowingly behind the wall behind the blinds, gave them the.

Josh:

Because they were loud.

Josh:

Well,

Bob:

it wasn't, no, I didn't mind it petite.

Bob:

They didn't give up.

Bob:

No, they had that finger on

Josh:

the trigger.

Josh:

It intensified.

Josh:

Yeah,

Bob:

they were.

Bob:

All right.

Bob:

So from beautiful, downtown and loud, Cary, North Carolina, I'm Bob Galen.

Bob:

I'm Josh Anderson shake and take care of y'all

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Josh Anderson

Josh Anderson is a seasoned software professional with a passion for agile methodologies and continuous improvement. As one of the hosts of The Meta-Cast podcast, Josh brings his wealth of experience and expertise to the table. With a knack for practical advice and a penchant for engaging storytelling, Josh captivates listeners with his insights on agile methodology, team dynamics, and software development best practices. His infectious enthusiasm and dedication to helping others succeed make him a valuable resource for aspiring software professionals.
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Bob Galen

Bob Galen is a recognized industry leader and an authority on agile practices and software architecture. With years of hands-on experience, Bob brings a wealth of knowledge and expertise to The Meta-Cast podcast. As a co-host, he delves into topics ranging from agile fluency to organizational transformations, providing listeners with invaluable insights and strategies. Bob's charismatic and humorous style, combined with his ability to simplify complex concepts, makes him a fan-favorite among software professionals seeking guidance on navigating the challenges of agile development. His passion for continuous learning and his dedication to helping teams succeed shine through in each episode of the podcast.

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Lisa $10
Thank you both for sharing all your insight. It's been extremely valuable to me.