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Episode 226

226 - Tactics Of Great Feedback

Feedback is a skill, and yet so few people have a chance to grow this skill. We help you find the tools and a few tactics that can kickstart your growth.

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Transcript
Bob:

Bob,

Josh Anderson:

I listen.

Josh Anderson:

I don't need the attitude.

Josh Anderson:

I don't need the attitude.

Josh Anderson:

I don't need you to get defensive with a little bit of feedback.

Bob:

And you know what I say, Take your ass back into your cocoon.

Bob:

Okay?

Bob:

We got so much feedback about our feedback episode, we're doing more

Bob:

feedback talk and you know what?

Bob:

We even added more feedback to our discord server.

Bob:

That's right.

Bob:

Feedback everywhere.

Bob:

You know what.

Bob:

Like we said, it's a gift.

Bob:

We talk about that this episode, we talk about how you can tactically become great

Bob:

at providing feedback in all directions.

Bob:

So listen in to grow that skill.

Bob:

That's so few people have the opportunity to grow.

Bob:

Get better at feedback now.

Josh Anderson:

We got feedback about our episode, about feedback, which, Perfect.

Josh Anderson:

And you know what?

Josh Anderson:

In our Discord link below, we now have a episode feedback section where

Josh Anderson:

people can drop in their comments about previous episodes and what they think,

Josh Anderson:

what they'd like to hear us expand on.

Josh Anderson:

Any audio issues if there were too many words from a certain co-host

Josh Anderson:

or dogs barking in the background.

Josh Anderson:

You know?

Josh Anderson:

Yeah.

Josh Anderson:

All, all of those things are options, so yeah,

Bob:

you could do that.

Bob:

So feedback.

Bob:

It's like recursion, you know, I always got confused with recursion.

Bob:

You know that?

Bob:

Yeah.

Josh Anderson:

But it's magical once you

Bob:

figure it out, right?

Bob:

Yeah.

Bob:

There's magic once you figure it out.

Bob:

But it's a li it's like recur, like feedback is like that, right?

Bob:

Yeah.

Bob:

It's recur.

Bob:

It can be recursive.

Bob:

Hmm.

Bob:

So

Josh Anderson:

the request we had was to dig like one.

Josh Anderson:

Deeper where we talked about feedback in general, but this was, Hey, how

Josh Anderson:

do I give feedback to a teammate?

Josh Anderson:

Or maybe I have a distant stakeholder that we need to give some feedback too.

Josh Anderson:

Like I know Bob has told a story about going into executive rooms

Josh Anderson:

and saying, You have to be here.

Josh Anderson:

You have to be at this.

Josh Anderson:

Sprint review or demo, or whatever flavor you want to use.

Josh Anderson:

So those times where that crucial conversation is important, that means

Josh Anderson:

it's a highly important discussion and you're likely a little bit

Josh Anderson:

nervous about not screwing it up.

Josh Anderson:

So our goal today is to enable you to go have those conversations.

Bob:

I want to kick things off, Josh.

Bob:

This maybe.

Bob:

Just demolish it if it's off track.

Bob:

Okay.

Bob:

I'm ready.

Bob:

Before we, we get into tools and techniques.

Bob:

I think it's the will.

Bob:

So one of the things I struggle with when I listen to people, a lot of

Bob:

people are looking for, give me this checklist and we can get into tools.

Bob:

I'm not saying they not useful, but the root cause I find, I mean I've

Bob:

heard it in this last week, folks are looking for some safe way to give.

Bob:

or they're looking for someone else to do it.

Bob:

And my brain almost always goes to, you know, the biggest problem is

Bob:

whether it's up, sideways or down to your team member or whatnot.

Bob:

And radical candor helps.

Bob:

There's two dimensions to radical candor, but it's like, do you have

Bob:

the will, the willingness to do it?

Bob:

And usually the answer is no, I don't want to do it.

Bob:

And there's factors around that.

Bob:

But to me, part of it is just, it's like stepping in with courage.

Bob:

And then using that and then looking at, now how do I give it?

Bob:

But there's almost like this gap between almost everyone I meet

Bob:

particularly when it's, the feedback is more dangerous, if you will.

Bob:

Yeah.

Bob:

Or more risky.

Bob:

And folks find all kinds of reasons and excuses why not to give it.

Bob:

So to me it would be will I'm, I'm punting that out.

Bob:

There will first.

Bob:

And then, and that's the most important thing, because you could

Bob:

have the, the most, you know, like 20,000 tools in your pocket.

Bob:

Mm-hmm.

Bob:

. But if you don't want to do it, then you're not going to do it.

Bob:

You're not gonna give feedback.

Bob:

What.

Bob:

Any reactions

Josh Anderson:

to that?

Josh Anderson:

Yeah, I, there's two sides to that coin.

Josh Anderson:

I believe to be effective at it, you have to have both the will and the skill.

Josh Anderson:

Yeah.

Josh Anderson:

And unfortunately, that skill is hardly ever taught.

Josh Anderson:

And even worse, the models or role models that you have from people

Josh Anderson:

giving feedback to you because they were never taught are pretty rough.

Josh Anderson:

So you don't have.

Josh Anderson:

Uh, safe pathway to understanding of this is how I do it well, because it's

Josh Anderson:

done so poorly or not at all across the board, which creates that lack of will

Josh Anderson:

because they know they don't have skill.

Josh Anderson:

So it compounds there and yes, will is the first and most important thing.

Josh Anderson:

You have to have to be able to do that.

Josh Anderson:

But I think the will is further reduced when there isn't a piece of

Josh Anderson:

skill there to go do it with confide.

Bob:

I, I mean, I think it's one of the factors.

Bob:

Yeah.

Bob:

For ex, for example, I, I remember by parts of my career I was doing multiple

Bob:

pips per, uh, personal improvement plans.

Bob:

And because I had a large organization I was involved in, you know,

Bob:

several pips at the same time.

Bob:

And what I found is they drained the life out of me.

Bob:

They were really exhausting, right?

Bob:

Yeah.

Bob:

Because giving feedback to people and how active you had to be in that.

Bob:

And then there was someone else that needed feedback.

Bob:

And to be honest, and this may sound lame, meta casters and I actually

Bob:

don't care cuz it's the reality.

Bob:

I didn't have the will, I didn't have the energy for it.

Bob:

I literally said, I need to have this conversation, but I'm not going to because

Bob:

I just don't have, I don't have the energy to have yet another conversation.

Bob:

So that's, to me, I didn't have.

Bob:

, right?

Bob:

I had this and skills are not, or it's too dangerous.

Bob:

Like I think what I'm saying is I think people, you gotta get over

Bob:

the excuse train to some degree.

Bob:

Yeah.

Bob:

And then there's, there's almost a default excu excuse train in most people's brains.

Bob:

I'm thinking it's a, a bad way to.

Bob:

Phrase it, but, uh, because it's so, it's so hard.

Bob:

It's not just even safety.

Bob:

It freaking requires energy, right?

Bob:

, you would, you agree?

Josh Anderson:

Yeah.

Josh Anderson:

Yeah.

Josh Anderson:

And the energy, starts well before the conversation and hangs around

Josh Anderson:

well after the conversation.

Josh Anderson:

Yeah.

Josh Anderson:

Right?

Josh Anderson:

Because you're, because you want to deliver it so well,

Josh Anderson:

because you want to be respect.

Josh Anderson:

You're really thinking through how to do it, you're probably losing a little

Josh Anderson:

sleep because it's that important to you.

Josh Anderson:

And then you provide the feedback and there's a dialogue there and

Josh Anderson:

whether it goes well or not, you're still gonna replay what happened in

Josh Anderson:

that discussion in your mind for a day or two, which is good, right?

Josh Anderson:

Cuz you're giving yourself the feedback of this is how I get better.

Josh Anderson:

But also you relive some of the energy that you went through to put in to

Josh Anderson:

make that happen and some of the challenges that happen along the way.

Josh Anderson:

It is a, uh, very draining thing to do it well when you care.

Josh Anderson:

Now, if you do it poorly without care, then yeah, it's super easy, right?

Josh Anderson:

Just like on the internet, you can get on the internet and

Josh Anderson:

say anybody's terrible, know?

Josh Anderson:

and that's, that doesn't take anything but 20 keystrokes, so that's no big deal.

Josh Anderson:

But doing it well, doing it thoughtfully and respectfully, that'll,

Bob:

that'll wear a person out.

Bob:

And it's not done either.

Bob:

It's not a one shot.

Bob:

Yeah.

Bob:

Rarely is feet, so it's not, I could see it if it was like a 10 minute

Bob:

conversation and then you're, maybe then you have five minutes of prep and five

Bob:

minutes, So five, ten five or whatever.

Bob:

So it's double the angst time but the conversations

Bob:

are never like that, at least.

Bob:

, or very rarely.

Bob:

It's like an ongoing, like I'll give someone feedback

Bob:

and they might be defense.

Bob:

So then they come back for clarification, right?

Bob:

And inside I'm inside, I'm rolling my eyes.

Bob:

I'm like, crap.

Bob:

God, this is gonna be ugly.

Bob:

But I'm, I'm engaging, I'm trying cuz it's my job.

Bob:

And then there may be a follow up in the other way, or there may be retaliation.

Bob:

Well, you gave me feedback.

Bob:

Let me give you, let me give you years feedback.

Bob:

So all I'm getting at is, It.

Bob:

It's an ongoing, very often it's an ongoing event, so

Bob:

that exacerbates it as well.

Bob:

Yeah, that, Let's get into it.

Bob:

Let's get into the tools.

Bob:

I didn't mean to derail it.

Bob:

I think I can

Josh Anderson:

segue very well into those tools based on what you just said.

Josh Anderson:

So the part that Bob just talked about, about it's not a one shot deal is true

Josh Anderson:

because so often when you have that first discussion with somebody, they hear

Josh Anderson:

the first words that come outta your.

Josh Anderson:

Then they likely get angry or defensive or whatever.

Josh Anderson:

And then the background you're providing isn't hurt at all.

Josh Anderson:

So they just hear, you're not doing well enough, and then you provide all

Josh Anderson:

this feedback and reason why, But their brain has already shut off listening

Josh Anderson:

and they're processing and they're like, wtf, They're table flipping, They're

Josh Anderson:

doing all this stuff that's going on, and they haven't heard all of that.

Josh Anderson:

So you will have to revisit that.

Josh Anderson:

A couple minutes later, maybe you work them through that and

Josh Anderson:

then you say, Okay, let's go over that again, just so we're clear.

Josh Anderson:

But it will never work that there's a single moment or instance where

Josh Anderson:

you provide feedback that matters and it's all consumed right away.

Bob:

People react and sometimes people react by whimper.

Bob:

Yeah.

Bob:

Okay.

Josh Anderson:

But yeah, that's what, that's what my dog does,

Josh Anderson:

, Bob: So any other I think

Josh Anderson:

Yeah.

Josh Anderson:

I think, uh, today I was teaching a class online.

Josh Anderson:

It was a scrum gathering in Sri Lanka, and I was talking about having a conversation.

Josh Anderson:

So I think one skill is thinking in terms of a radical, you know, having

Josh Anderson:

a model where there's opening in my arc for coaching conversations

Josh Anderson:

or feedback conversations.

Josh Anderson:

I like a chess metaphor.

Josh Anderson:

Josh, you probably heard this at nausea sometimes.

Josh Anderson:

, but it's like opening moves, middle game, end game.

Josh Anderson:

And what I was asking folks to do in the workshop was put the arc on a piece

Josh Anderson:

of paper and I gave them a scenario.

Josh Anderson:

And I asked them to scribble some ideas around how would they open,

Josh Anderson:

given the scenario, how would you open, what would be the middle game?

Josh Anderson:

How would you close it?

Josh Anderson:

Would there be other conversations you would have?

Josh Anderson:

It's, what would the bouncing ball be like if it was the first conversation?

Josh Anderson:

You want to just establish rapport.

Josh Anderson:

Or maybe see how they're going.

Josh Anderson:

So you would ask more questions it towards a, if it was a second or a third

Josh Anderson:

conversation, feedback session, it might be contentious or something like that.

Josh Anderson:

. So prepare that.

Josh Anderson:

What's your mindset like cleaning up your biases before you go into the arc?

Josh Anderson:

Make sure that you're not, you know, if I've had five conver , like with you,

Josh Anderson:

Josh, if I've had five hard challenging conversations with you, and I know

Josh Anderson:

I have to have a conversation with you on Monday, I need to clean out

Josh Anderson:

myself so I don't, so I don't trigger.

Josh Anderson:

Yeah.

Josh Anderson:

And I, I don't mentally say, Oh, this is gonna be hard before you even open your

Josh Anderson:

word on mon your mouth on Monday morning.

Josh Anderson:

I've already prejudge.

Josh Anderson:

Yep.

Josh Anderson:

And he's smiling cuz I, I might do that occasionally.

Josh Anderson:

So yeah.

Josh Anderson:

Cause

Josh Anderson:

I've never heard you say, I'm not picking, but I knew I was,

Bob:

I was hoping you would bring that example.

Bob:

I'm not, I hope this is a negative, but I'm not picking, but Yeah, exactly.

Bob:

And that's, that, that bias.

Bob:

So I think that arc is really useful, not just while while you're in, but pre.

Bob:

Like getting your brain lined up.

Bob:

So I go in clean.

Bob:

How am I gonna start?

Bob:

Maybe I'll start with some questions and then really listen hard.

Bob:

Like if, if I'm giving, if I've observed something, my open ended

Bob:

questions would be around empathy.

Bob:

Okay, I have this view.

Bob:

What's their view?

Bob:

Yeah, what's their perspective?

Bob:

And then shut up and listen.

Bob:

So my arc would be open-ended questions.

Bob:

Shut up.

Bob:

Damnit Bob, listen.

Bob:

And then really peel the.

Bob:

and that might be that conversation.

Bob:

So I found that having that in my mind knowing that I have to not

Bob:

just ask questions, but then move and start resolving something or

Bob:

exploring something, and then I have to close it with, and very often

Bob:

the close is, What did you hear?

Bob:

Like confirmation.

Bob:

This is, I heard we had a conversation.

Bob:

What are your takeaways, Josh?

Bob:

This is what I heard.

Bob:

What did you.

Bob:

, this is the agreements.

Bob:

I heard this is the observations.

Bob:

What did you, And then really listening into Josh to confirm, are we on the

Bob:

same page or did he trigger and he only heard like the first word and

Bob:

then he didn't hear anything else.

Bob:

Well then I have some work to do.

Bob:

Yep.

Bob:

So that might be sort of trigger was having an arc, thinking about

Bob:

opening, closing, things like that.

Bob:

What you think.

Bob:

Yeah,

Josh Anderson:

I certainly, because you have to understand how the

Josh Anderson:

feedback is gonna be received.

Josh Anderson:

In general, everybody's different but human emotions will follow

Josh Anderson:

pretty much the same path.

Josh Anderson:

One of the approaches that I prefer to take is what I've found over my time is

Josh Anderson:

that whenever there's a difference in opinion in how things are or should be

Josh Anderson:

done, There's usually a information gap that someone has a piece of information

Josh Anderson:

that I don't, so I go into it and I say, Bob, this is what I'm seeing, so

Josh Anderson:

that leads me to believe X, Y, and Z.

Josh Anderson:

But I'm not sure that's true.

Josh Anderson:

Can you walk me through your side of the story and help me understand that?

Josh Anderson:

Because I'm just assuming there's something that I'm

Josh Anderson:

not seeing or I'm not getting.

Josh Anderson:

So educate.

Josh Anderson:

So I like to turn that around and say, and just walk in like, I am wrong.

Josh Anderson:

Tell me why I'm wrong and I hope I am wrong and it's just for whatever

Josh Anderson:

I haven't perceived something, or whatever the answer might be.

Josh Anderson:

But I like to open the door like that.

Josh Anderson:

So what's not Bob?

Josh Anderson:

You suck at C Sharp, Bob.

Josh Anderson:

JavaScript is the worst thing you've ever written.

Josh Anderson:

Whatever the topic might be, but I, that's my opening volley is to provide

Josh Anderson:

them a safe space of, Oh, there's a gap.

Josh Anderson:

Like you don't, like you haven't seen this.

Josh Anderson:

Well, let me educate you, Josh.

Josh Anderson:

And then they do that and hopefully they do that and everything's in a

Josh Anderson:

much better spot and you all walk away or they don't educate you and.

Josh Anderson:

You can have the further discussion, but that's how I like to open the

Josh Anderson:

door and get the party started.

Bob:

Well, it's, I mean, I remember a crucial or radical

Bob:

candor in, in one of the videos.

Bob:

She says, We're having radical radically candid conversations so

Bob:

that either I, your thinking can be changed or my thinking can be changed.

Bob:

And your leading with my thinking can be changed.

Bob:

I'm this, Correct, correct me or I have some wrong thinking, whatever.

Bob:

But you have the relationship built so that we're coming out of it

Bob:

and it's so it's not just one way.

Bob:

think another tool in providing feedback is don't enter

Bob:

assuming that you are Right.

Bob:

It's a real, like, like the mental model was, I'm a hundred percent

Bob:

right and you're, and you're a hundred percent wrong or 0%.

Bob:

Right.

Bob:

Is a really bad model, seek to understand.

Bob:

Even if you, even if every ounce you're being says, let's say someone

Bob:

has broken a company policy, right?

Bob:

Someone's broken, it's not dangerous, but they've broken a po a serious

Bob:

policy, and it's black and white, so there's no argument about it, right?

Bob:

And you're having that and you're giving them that feedback.

Bob:

I'd still go in not with a hundred.

Bob:

I'd want to, I'd to, to Josh's point, it's explore.

Bob:

I've seen you right?

Bob:

I think you broke in the policy.

Bob:

Please meet me here.

Bob:

Tell me more about that, and then really listen.

Bob:

That's a much more effective, I think balancing act, the

Bob:

power dynamics come into play.

Bob:

Yeah.

Bob:

If what?

Bob:

That feedback we got Josh from in Oh my God.

Bob:

What's the darn tool?

Bob:

Discord.

Bob:

The discord.

Bob:

Yeah.

Josh Anderson:

Stop.

Josh Anderson:

Just everybody go there.

Josh Anderson:

Everybody Listen.

Josh Anderson:

I need all of our listeners to please join the Discord and make

Josh Anderson:

it the most vibrant community ever because Bob refuses to use the tool.

Josh Anderson:

So please, please do your part in helping bring Bob into the 21st century.

Josh Anderson:

I'm asking you.

Josh Anderson:

I'm begging you.

Josh Anderson:

Please help this happen.

Josh Anderson:

Okay.

Josh Anderson:

Sorry

Bob:

Bob.

Bob:

Medic Kissers.

Bob:

That was a good role model of what not to do, to give someone feedback.

Bob:

Based on their age and their ability to use tools and things.

Bob:

So I I really, Oh, you're right, Josh.

Bob:

I really, I really appreciate you role modeling failure there, Josh.

Bob:

Yeah.

Bob:

Yeah.

Bob:

In, in giving me that feedback and embarrassing me in front

Bob:

of everyone, that I did

Josh Anderson:

not remove my biases at all.

Josh Anderson:

I probably, No, you did haven't

Bob:

done that . No, no.

Bob:

You, you did.

Bob:

You threw me, You threw me under.

Bob:

The medic has, but I did.

Bob:

Uh, but, but, uh, power dynamics come into play, like if you're giving feedback.

Bob:

Culture dynamics come into play.

Bob:

Yeah.

Bob:

One of the things I'd be concerned about if I'm a US engineer working

Bob:

in a distributed team with engineers from India or from Asia or anywhere

Bob:

actually just cross-cultural dynamics.

Bob:

You know what we say power.

Bob:

And it even gets more.

Bob:

Difficult to finagle because let's say it's an outsource, you're outsourcing

Bob:

it, it's a contract relationship.

Bob:

So you have cultural dynamics that are absolutely in play and

Bob:

then you have power dynamics.

Bob:

You're the customer, right?

Bob:

And those things are coming into play with the feedback.

Bob:

So that's part of that I think, prep.

Bob:

So what's different with the feedback?

Bob:

It's never good to come in guns blazing.

Bob:

The way I think of it is coming in with your guns blazing.

Bob:

The nuance, like thinking, preparing for your feedback session,

Bob:

almost creating a checklist where you think about cultural it.

Bob:

Does this have cultural dynamics that I need to prepare for or be aware of?

Bob:

Does it have power dynamics that are different that I need

Bob:

to prepare for and be aware of?

Bob:

Do I have a.

Bob:

And biases that I need to prepare for and be aware of, et cetera.

Bob:

And that's just the tip of the iceberg as far as that.

Bob:

I think that's some of the stuff that makes those

Bob:

conversations more challenging.

Bob:

Bec and I would say one quick thing, Josh.

Bob:

I'd say all feedback.

Bob:

If you don't want a positive outcome, then you need to check yourself out.

Bob:

So what I mean is I, whenever I do feedback, I'm not

Bob:

trying to demolish someone.

Bob:

I'm trying to get at least in my mind, to a positive outcome.

Bob:

So why do I go through that checklist to have a positive feedback experience, to

Bob:

have a positive outcome, not just to meet my but a positive sort of organizational.

Bob:

Not win the argument.

Bob:

Yeah, exactly.

Bob:

But to get that outcome, that's, And so the more of that nuance that's

Bob:

in there, if I have that goal, the more work I have to do, probably

Bob:

the more skill I have to have the more nuance to, to make it work out.

Bob:

Right.

Bob:

Yeah.

Josh Anderson:

I actually go into those discussions hoping that

Josh Anderson:

I lose, hoping that I'm wrong, hoping that there's that piece of

Josh Anderson:

information that they have, that I.

Josh Anderson:

Found out about yet, or figured out yet, or whatever it might be.

Josh Anderson:

One of the things that often helps me in those situations where your will starts to

Josh Anderson:

dwindle is I put myselves in their shoes.

Josh Anderson:

And I imagine what it would be like to find out months, years later that

Josh Anderson:

someone had a piece of feedback that could help me and they chose not.

Josh Anderson:

Provide it.

Josh Anderson:

So the closer I get to people and or teams, the more willing and aggressive

Josh Anderson:

I am to actually jump in and offer the feedback early and often, because

Josh Anderson:

otherwise I feel like I'm not being a good teammate, I'm not being a good friend,

Josh Anderson:

and I'm intentionally limiting their ability to grow in the ways that they

Josh Anderson:

want to grow by just withholding that.

Josh Anderson:

I end up feeling like a jerk if I don't do that.

Josh Anderson:

And maybe I've talked myself into that corner, but that's a thing that I have,

Josh Anderson:

and it doesn't mean that I like doing it, but there's times where like, Oh crap.

Josh Anderson:

I gotta go do this.

Josh Anderson:

I don't, I don't wanna put, like, I have to do this for the good of the

Josh Anderson:

company and the responsibility I have, but also for the good of that person.

Josh Anderson:

Otherwise I'm letting them down on what kind of leader, teammate, partner.

Bob:

In radical candor.

Bob:

Another snippet from the video is she makes the point and in the book,

Bob:

Feedback is a moral obligation.

Bob:

Now, her target audience is leaders, is the majority.

Bob:

It's actually not.

Bob:

I mean, it's radical Candor is general, you know, 360 degrees.

Bob:

So she's not, it's not a downward focus in the book at all, but it's

Bob:

this moral obligation she talks about.

Bob:

It's a moral obligation.

Bob:

It's so, it's not a nice to have, it's not optional.

Bob:

It's your obligation, you know, in your context.

Bob:

So if you're giving it, if you're a leader of a team, it's your

Bob:

moral obligation of the team.

Bob:

If you're a member of a team, team member to team member, you

Bob:

still just, just because you're flat on an org chart doesn't give

Bob:

you a get outta jail free card.

Bob:

You have a moral obligation, particularly if you're talking about

Bob:

someone or they're frustrating you.

Bob:

Very often folks will back bite, at a team level.

Bob:

Someone will be complaining about someone, like they'll complain as a

Bob:

boss, I've had people, they'll run to me and complain to me to do something,

Bob:

but they won't have the convers.

Bob:

And I'm like, that's your job.

Bob:

Have that they're your peer.

Bob:

I can of course do it, but it's less it's less personal.

Bob:

It's more like kindergarteny or something like that.

Bob:

It's you know, buck up and have that conversation.

Bob:

It's your obligation, I think, in all directions, peer to.

Bob:

You and I, Josh, all joking aside, you've given me feedback

Bob:

at hard feedback at times.

Bob:

I've given you hard feedback at times.

Bob:

Yep.

Bob:

Now it's based on relationship and things like that, but I don't shy away from it.

Bob:

It's, it really is, it's a gift.

Bob:

So, yeah, Agreed.

Josh Anderson:

And go ahead Pete.

Josh Anderson:

Just talk, just talking about the skill.

Josh Anderson:

I think we're semi qualified because of.

Josh Anderson:

But I don't think we're fully qualified to provide you with all

Josh Anderson:

the tools on this is how you provide the feedback in a smooth way.

Josh Anderson:

We have both referenced books, Radical Candor, that's been Bob's

Josh Anderson:

driving thing for quite a while.

Josh Anderson:

Crucial Conversations was older and before that, but that's the one that I've latched

Josh Anderson:

onto that I provide all of my teams with.

Josh Anderson:

And we read that and that's.

Josh Anderson:

I help them acquire the skills to have these difficult discussions

Josh Anderson:

across the team members.

Josh Anderson:

So invest in getting better in the skill piece and do it with like,

Josh Anderson:

there's, there's great resources that out there and we've named too but I'm

Josh Anderson:

sure that there, there are others.

Josh Anderson:

Those are the two that we've latched onto.

Josh Anderson:

But I am sure you have no shortage of resources if you do a little searching.

Bob:

I wanna come back to skill versus will again.

Bob:

So I have a mediocre amount of skill.

Bob:

Josh, maybe I've read crucial conversations and I have a conversation

Bob:

of feedback that needs to happen, but I don't feel skilled to do it.

Bob:

And, uh, but I have the will to do it, but I'm worried a little bit

Bob:

about, you know, doing a half job.

Bob:

right?

Bob:

I have a skills gap.

Bob:

I've always argued just do it.

Bob:

So we ha part of the moral obligation is have the darn

Bob:

conversation, even if it's crappy.

Bob:

You've got, even if you, let's say you do half, half well, right?

Bob:

You stutter, you forget your words.

Bob:

You personalize it when you shouldn't.

Bob:

You can go back, I would argue.

Bob:

You can go back and correct that, but you've given someone the gift of feedback.

Bob:

It was poorly crafted, but that's better than giving someone no feedback at all.

Bob:

And avoiding it and patting yourself on the back.

Bob:

What now?

Bob:

Again, get better over time, but I think folks focus on skill too much.

Bob:

So what

Josh Anderson:

you're saying is people would rather have a long preparation

Josh Anderson:

and ship this conversation once, instead of maybe shipping it as

Josh Anderson:

quickly as you have the minimum viable.

Josh Anderson:

And get it out there and then provide you with the opportunity

Josh Anderson:

to iterate on that and get better through maybe like retrospecting.

Josh Anderson:

So like you have the tools.

Josh Anderson:

If you're listening to this podcast, you already think it an agile manner.

Josh Anderson:

So apply the same principles to this.

Josh Anderson:

Get your first conversation out there, get it going.

Josh Anderson:

Learn stub your toe, Do all of those things, stub your toe.

Josh Anderson:

Otherwise

Bob:

you're not.

Bob:

And, and you know what we focus on the negatives, Josh.

Bob:

There is a possibility that the person could take this crapp

Bob:

really crafted and even help you.

Bob:

Yeah.

Bob:

Oh, what are you, Oh, you're Bob.

Bob:

Are you saying this or are you saying this?

Bob:

No, no, I'm not saying the first one.

Bob:

Thank you.

Bob:

I'm, I'm actually, I'm actually go le, you know, going into there and

Bob:

it's like, Oh, okay, I get that.

Bob:

Well, tell me a little bit more about that.

Bob:

So it is not out of the realm of possibility.

Bob:

That, that someone can like, like, help you with that or be amenable or

Bob:

be approachable or come back later and say, you know, or they, even if they

Bob:

blow up, I've had folks blow up or get, get really upset, but the next day they

Bob:

come in and they ask for more clarifying information and we have a great outcome.

Bob:

So that perfect conversation.

Bob:

Again, I'm not saying, I'm not telling everyone to suck at it or not

Bob:

to continue to refine your skills.

Bob:

Yeah.

Bob:

But just jump into these things.

Bob:

Yeah.

Bob:

Because it's real time.

Bob:

It goes back to that point of when's the best time to give feedback now, , Or soon?

Bob:

As soon I, once I, once Josh had a boss, and this happened, I, it

Bob:

may have happened to you, but like something happened nine months earlier.

Bob:

Yeah.

Bob:

And they waited for my annual review to give me feedback.

Bob:

Yes.

Bob:

And it wasn't a huge thing.

Bob:

But, and this wasn't even like now, but I forgot about it.

Bob:

And they triggered on it, I guess, and they're, they're talking to

Bob:

me about it and I'm like, I ha, I don't remember that at all.

Bob:

Yeah, I'm not.

Bob:

And they're like, Oh, you're getting defensive.

Bob:

I'm like, No, I honestly don't.

Bob:

, I have no recollection of that event whatsoever.

Bob:

It was nine months ago.

Bob:

I have four young kids at home.

Bob:

I don't have recollections of what they did a week ago for God's sakes,

Bob:

let alone like nine months ago.

Bob:

But it's true.

Bob:

Yeah.

Bob:

It, it's that, it's that relevancy.

Bob:

I agree.

Bob:

What else can we give the listeners?

Bob:

What do you think?

Josh Anderson:

I don't, I feel pretty solid about this.

Josh Anderson:

I think we hit some of the common stumbling blocks that people will

Josh Anderson:

have that will, to your point, stop them from getting that first volley.

Josh Anderson:

And allowing them to try and learn.

Josh Anderson:

We covered that.

Josh Anderson:

We've talked about the skill pieces and if you haven't read either of those

Josh Anderson:

books, please read one of those books.

Josh Anderson:

There's no reason not to.

Josh Anderson:

It will help you well beyond your job.

Josh Anderson:

It will help in regular life.

Josh Anderson:

So it's that's a, those are powerful books that are helpful across the board.

Josh Anderson:

So help yourself in any way, provide

Bob:

yourself that feedback.

Bob:

I think something to add, and I'm going back to the.

Bob:

Comments.

Bob:

Is going at these risky conversations.

Bob:

Up, Let's talk about risky.

Bob:

Okay.

Bob:

Feedback sessions up.

Bob:

I think you wanna be, So yes.

Bob:

Have them.

Bob:

Yes, have them in real time.

Bob:

Don't wait for all those skill.

Bob:

Have them give the, give folks the gift of feedback, but also put

Bob:

on your listening at and really listen to body language, et cetera.

Bob:

When you start it, I think some leaders can handle the truth

Bob:

and some leaders can handle the.

Bob:

. And so as you're giving feedback, let's say you're having let's say meta casters.

Bob:

You all report to Josh for a minute.

Bob:

I know.

Bob:

How scary is that and you're giving Josh feedback and default.

Bob:

Josh to me is, he's receptive.

Bob:

He would probably lean in, he'd ask some questions.

Bob:

He probably personalized it cuz he cares so much, he could probably

Bob:

feel the pain in him to some degree.

Bob:

So you, the emotion, you would feel the emotional field.

Bob:

It's making a difference.

Bob:

He's talking about things and what you're reading from him

Bob:

is he's receptive for feedback.

Bob:

I'll take a walk on the wild side and I bet Josh there's a chance

Bob:

that he would thank you honestly and profusely for giving him the feedback.

Bob:

Yep.

Bob:

So that's an indication to you that you have a safe environment.

Bob:

I'm probably over here in the extreme side of.

Bob:

Now there's a counterpoint on the other side where the person leans

Bob:

back, they close off, they raise their little head, they look down at you.

Bob:

It's the min you are they start getting defensive.

Bob:

They start micro man asking micro questions.

Bob:

Cla They're not really clarifying.

Bob:

They're trying to trick you.

Bob:

Uh, they're try, they're verbally sparring or they might get angry or

Bob:

they might just say, You're wrong, you don't have enough information.

Bob:

That's just absolutely wrong, but I'm not gonna share the information with

Bob:

you because you have no need to know.

Bob:

They get obnoxious so they get full of themselves.

Bob:

So what you need to be doing is reading in these power dynamic situations, read

Bob:

the landscape and the receptivity, and at some point you don't want to keep going.

Bob:

So Josh, you want to keep going back to the well, but not too much.

Bob:

Don't feed him minutia, I mean, Yes.

Bob:

Thank you.

Bob:

Right.

Bob:

So, oh, Josh is friendly to feedback.

Bob:

I'm gonna talk to him about his car and his dog and everything.

Bob:

Cool.

Bob:

Right?

Bob:

So you want to, you want sense and respond and on the, it's

Bob:

danger will Robinson side.

Bob:

You wanna sense and respond as well.

Bob:

Is it safe?

Bob:

, you don't want to just keep going there.

Bob:

So I think there's a sense and respond nature where you.

Bob:

The frequency and the candor that you give for your own.

Bob:

Now they're also telling you that's probably not gonna change much.

Bob:

. So they're also giving you cultural indicators of, you're

Bob:

not in Kansas anymore, so this is the way we handled the truth.

Bob:

You have to ask yourself, do I wanna stay here?

Bob:

Is this, do I want to interact this way?

Bob:

But you sure you know of your.

Bob:

Intelligence in that way.

Bob:

Your sense and respond intelligence.

Bob:

Yeah, the, Go ahead, Josh.

Josh Anderson:

The approach that I described earlier is always the way that

Josh Anderson:

I take with this because some leaders just aren't good at sharing things

Josh Anderson:

and many organizations, communication across the board is not good.

Josh Anderson:

So I always assume there's a piece of inform.

Josh Anderson:

That someone above me has that I don't have, because they forgot to share it.

Josh Anderson:

They didn't share it.

Josh Anderson:

They didn't think they could or should.

Josh Anderson:

So I go in assuming there's a piece of info that I don't have.

Josh Anderson:

So I say, Hey, why?

Josh Anderson:

Why aren't we doing this?

Josh Anderson:

It seems like if we did that would enable X, Y, and Z and

Josh Anderson:

things would be so much better.

Josh Anderson:

And then oftentimes that's where you see that light bulb

Josh Anderson:

go often when that lead like.

Josh Anderson:

Yeah, here's some context you don't have.

Josh Anderson:

Sorry about that.

Josh Anderson:

Like that's often what happens with me is like, Dang it, I'm so sorry I

Josh Anderson:

didn't provide that to you and the team sooner so that you didn't have to

Josh Anderson:

wrestle with this and spend time on it.

Josh Anderson:

But that's that.

Josh Anderson:

That's so often where a lot of misconceptions or misunderstandings

Josh Anderson:

lie for feedback up.

Bob:

The other thing, maybe we wrap it up this way, and this is a thought is we've

Bob:

talked about interviewing here before and I know you go into interviews like

Bob:

trying to test the cultural landscape.

Bob:

and also you could do that with feedback.

Bob:

So the place to start with sensing the feedback landscape of your environment

Bob:

is actually, to me, not necess the first time is not necessarily when

Bob:

you're in the environment, it's before you even join the environment.

Bob:

You can test the landscape of.

Bob:

You know, giving feedback and getting feedback and things like that.

Bob:

And are we compatible?

Bob:

And I would say do that.

Bob:

you know, sort of talk to, you know, if you're interviewing with your boss, ask

Bob:

them how do you like to handle feedback?

Bob:

Can you handle the truth?

Bob:

I mean, in a, with a, in a, you know, in a sort of playful way,

Bob:

but you know, how much of the truth do you usually like to hear?

Bob:

Give me an example of that.

Bob:

You can interview for feedback dynamics so you know what you're stepping into

Bob:

or you know, what their constraints.

Bob:

So that you can adjust your feedback to them.

Bob:

I do think we haven't talked about it much, but I do think we need

Bob:

to be nimble in our skills and our delivery mechanisms because it's our

Bob:

job for the fir person to receive it.

Bob:

Yeah.

Bob:

Or to do our job as much as we can so that they receive it.

Bob:

It doesn't mean we have to apply, a hundred tools, but we need to be flexible.

Bob:

It's not one.

Bob:

Yeah.

Josh Anderson:

And everybody's gonna be different.

Josh Anderson:

So you might, yeah, walk in with the same approach like I do, and

Josh Anderson:

then have to quickly adjust ju just based on how that person reacts.

Josh Anderson:

Because you never know until someone's put in that position.

Josh Anderson:

You might have an idea of how they're gonna react, but you're

Josh Anderson:

never really gonna know until that

Bob:

situation happens.

Bob:

I think the actual coaching, it's similar with these, going back to that arc.

Bob:

Yeah.

Bob:

The, the canne, the Canne model, which is the sense and respond model.

Bob:

It's really been helping.

Bob:

To articulate that part of a conversation is I need to be

Bob:

listening and sensing what's going on.

Bob:

Did that question land and watch their body language and sort

Bob:

of giving myself feedback and I need to respond differently.

Bob:

There's a nimbleness to effective feedback.

Bob:

I don't think radical candor or crucial conversations covers it enough.

Bob:

I think it's a practice thing and building that muscle.

Bob:

Of being able to sense and in real time, because you're talking, you're

Bob:

giving feedback, you are listening, but now you're processing what you're

Bob:

sensing and you're thinking about what adjustments do I need to make right in,

Bob:

in my feedback, in my own body language.

Bob:

Like, I'm biased.

Bob:

Oh, I need to remove that bias quickly, otherwise we're gonna crash and burn here.

Bob:

How do I remove the bias?

Bob:

And I'm not just pausing the conversation.

Bob:

So think in terms of sense and respond with the goal of having a.

Bob:

Outcome, right?

Bob:

Yep.

Bob:

The ultimate goal is, can I get that good outcome?

Bob:

What would be a simple trans sense response is Josh starts, I, he starts

Bob:

getting red, and my response, so this is simple, but he starts getting red and his

Bob:

head starts expanding and he's getting really aggravated and he's bigger than

Bob:

me and , and I , and I'm like, Well, why don't we, why don't we do this tomorrow?

Bob:

And, and we end it right there.

Bob:

So there's a sense, there's a very simplistic sense of

Josh Anderson:

respond.

Josh Anderson:

Let me get that.

Josh Anderson:

I don't don even say a word.

Josh Anderson:

I just nod.

Josh Anderson:

Exactly.

Josh Anderson:

Literally.

Josh Anderson:

Yeah.

Josh Anderson:

, Bob: let me, And you're gonna see like

Josh Anderson:

like a cartoon cloud trail as I get the hell out of the, of the, uh, gosh.

Josh Anderson:

All right.

Josh Anderson:

So I think the fork has been stuck.

Josh Anderson:

Bob,

Bob:

how do you feel about that?

Bob:

I feel good.

Bob:

Okay, good.

Bob:

So I think, I think that's, Is that our closing line?

Bob:

Yeah.

Bob:

Is that our, So from beautiful downtown Cary, North Carolina and and from and

Josh Anderson:

beautiful Fuqua Arena,

Bob:

Quite frisky, Fuqua Hy Andina, That's right.

Bob:

North Carolina Anderson, Josh

Josh Anderson:

Anderson.

Josh Anderson:

Dude, Lord, would you let me say my name?

Josh Anderson:

Can I say it now?

Josh Anderson:

I'm Josh and.

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Josh Anderson

Josh Anderson is a seasoned software professional with a passion for agile methodologies and continuous improvement. As one of the hosts of The Meta-Cast podcast, Josh brings his wealth of experience and expertise to the table. With a knack for practical advice and a penchant for engaging storytelling, Josh captivates listeners with his insights on agile methodology, team dynamics, and software development best practices. His infectious enthusiasm and dedication to helping others succeed make him a valuable resource for aspiring software professionals.
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Bob Galen

Bob Galen is a recognized industry leader and an authority on agile practices and software architecture. With years of hands-on experience, Bob brings a wealth of knowledge and expertise to The Meta-Cast podcast. As a co-host, he delves into topics ranging from agile fluency to organizational transformations, providing listeners with invaluable insights and strategies. Bob's charismatic and humorous style, combined with his ability to simplify complex concepts, makes him a fan-favorite among software professionals seeking guidance on navigating the challenges of agile development. His passion for continuous learning and his dedication to helping teams succeed shine through in each episode of the podcast.

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Lisa $10
Thank you both for sharing all your insight. It's been extremely valuable to me.