Episode 224
224 - Managing Expectations
You like when we deliver episodes every Monday morning, right? You'd probably be OK if we shared that we would miss a week for some reason, correct? What if you checked your podcast feed on Monday morning and we didn't deliver as we normally do? Table flip.
- Episode 131 - Can an agile team plan too much?
- Episode 164 - Difficult Conversations Role Play, Part 2
- Episode 163 - Difficult Conversations Role Play, Part 1
- Episode 172 - How Real Leaders Communicate
- Episode 131 - Can an agile team plan too much?
- Episode 164 - Difficult Conversations Role Play, Part 2
- Episode 163 - Difficult Conversations Role Play, Part 1
- Episode 172 - How Real Leaders Communicate
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Transcript
My friend, trying to I'm trying to be as cool as.
Speaker:As me.
Speaker:You got a waste to go aside.
Speaker:I had to go with a son.
Speaker:I think it was fine.
Speaker:And then he threw the sun in
Speaker:I know you could be my son.
Speaker:I know.
Speaker:The secret sauce to victory is managing expectations.
Speaker:Do your stakeholders know the reality of what's going on
Speaker:with your project right now?
Speaker:Are they comfortable?
Speaker:Are they fearful?
Speaker:Are they excited?
Speaker:Do you have all of those emotions too?
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:It can be tough.
Speaker:That's okay.
Speaker:That's where we're here.
Speaker:We got a whole episode.
Speaker:Walking you through how to manage expectations for
Speaker:your project from the start.
Speaker:So that way, everybody knows what's going on.
Speaker:They know where things Any risks that are out there, they're
Speaker:handled ready to rock and roll.
Speaker:So stay
Speaker:What do you think is the messiest part?
Speaker:Of a project, the start, the middle or the end, the start,
Speaker:the middle of the entire thing.
Speaker:Is.
Speaker:I think the most crucial part, the messiest part of a
Speaker:project is the entire project.
Speaker:And I'm coming back to answering your question.
Speaker:If you don't set it up right.
Speaker:I think.
Speaker:I think it's a a success factor.
Speaker:If you set there's this An old project managers or PMI PMP, project managers
Speaker:talk about project chartering.
Speaker:Yeah, I think if I remember there's an entire section of the PM, the PIM Bach.
Speaker:The project management body of knowledge around project chartering.
Speaker:Now they were very checklist.
Speaker:And very document centric about it.
Speaker:But, they really focused on project chartering.
Speaker:I think agile chartering we talked, have you ever read liftoff?
Speaker:No.
Speaker:Oh, you should read.
Speaker:Lift off.
Speaker:Okay.
Speaker:It's by Diana Larson and.
Speaker:I'm blanking on Ansley knees, I think.
Speaker:Okay.
Speaker:To we'll put a link.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:To women Angeles and it's in its second edition.
Speaker:But it's not project liftoff.
Speaker:I think it's just liftoff, but that's the equivalent of agile chartering.
Speaker:Okay.
Speaker:I like, starting an initiative and they bring in things like they have
Speaker:a focus on team, establishing the team and the dynamics of a team.
Speaker:How much more is that than what's traditionally been called sprint zero.
Speaker:To me spring zero was never really defined very My interpretation
Speaker:or usage of sprint zero.
Speaker:My experience in it was, it was much more of 90% of sprint.
Speaker:Zero was getting your content.
Speaker:Like in front of you or your backlog, and also validating your like doing spiking.
Speaker:Like validating your initial designs and things like that.
Speaker:That was a sprint zero and maybe 10% of a sprint zero was around the soft skills.
Speaker:The team formation, the team rules.
Speaker:Whereas liftoff is probably not 90 10, but in reverse, but maybe.
Speaker:60 40.
Speaker:Okay.
Speaker:Something like that, really focusing on team roles and responsibilities,
Speaker:guard, rails, establishing that.
Speaker:Before you start and then having clarity.
Speaker:The other thing with liftoff is I think they have a focus on.
Speaker:And I don't think sprint zeros did a very good job of this.
Speaker:If at all, is like the mission and vision of a project.
Speaker:What is the success?
Speaker:What is the high level success factors, right?
Speaker:The Y.
Speaker:It was more of a work sprint zeroes were more of a historical, like what
Speaker:do we need to do to get ready to start sprinting, to start working?
Speaker:Okay.
Speaker:So back to my Start middle or end.
Speaker:The messiest part.
Speaker:Is the whole pro if you don't start well, The.
Speaker:So I think the, maybe the messiest part of a project is the start.
Speaker:Let me, re-ask the question.
Speaker:Yeah, the messiest part of a.
Speaker:Poorly executed or poorly run project versus a well.
Speaker:Are you trying to tease out the topic for this Josh.
Speaker:I am I'm working hard.
Speaker:You are, and I'm not am I am actually, I'm not trying to be resistant.
Speaker:Medical history.
Speaker:The episode today is focused on setting expectations.
Speaker:So to me, that's a, that happens during the life of a project that should be
Speaker:happening during the life of a project.
Speaker:Or resetting expert, maybe it's called setting expectations in the beginning.
Speaker:And then resetting expectations.
Speaker:If you need to all along the way.
Speaker:And if you don't set, I think projects get messy.
Speaker:Depending on the well, a variety of factors, but there's
Speaker:a reality on the ground.
Speaker:It goes back to how well did you set expectations?
Speaker:Not just of time.
Speaker:It's a timing is a big part of it.
Speaker:Like scope and timing, that triple constraint thing.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:The iron triangle.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:And less on costs.
Speaker:I don't think, yes, you can set expectations for costs, but it's
Speaker:more, so time and did you set up expectations properly in the beginning?
Speaker:Over time and scope and maybe I would say risk.
Speaker:Like the level of risk or the level of ambiguity or the level of unknown.
Speaker:And something like that.
Speaker:So that to me, needs to be happening at the start.
Speaker:Now, if you don't do that at the start and a lot of projects don't, or they do a bad,
Speaker:they do a bad job of setting expectations.
Speaker:Clearly.
Speaker:And explicitly upfront then you're in, I think you're in for a Rocky ride
Speaker:because that resetting, if you didn't.
Speaker:He did a crappy job setting them.
Speaker:Then resetting them as hard.
Speaker:'cause you're surprising folks along the way.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:The point I was getting to is that many poorly run projects.
Speaker:The messiest part is the end, because you're trying to scramble for that
Speaker:clarity that you could have should You were going, you were going to the end.
Speaker:Just when I think of a bulk of the companies I've walked into and the
Speaker:death marches that they are on.
Speaker:Like you think at Teradata back when you went Yeah, I would, I would buy that.
Speaker:I didn't know where you were going.
Speaker:Did you know my first book?
Speaker:We don't, I don't know if I talk about it much, but something
Speaker:called software end games.
Speaker:Is that on.
Speaker:Is that Tablet like stone tablets.
Speaker:So it's all
Speaker:It's almost.
Speaker:It's not a very, it's not very people aren't aware of it nowadays.
Speaker:It's gotten its first It's still on.
Speaker:No, at the time it, it did very well.
Speaker:I was invited to a lot of keynotes and things and the entire point of suffering
Speaker:games was that to manage that end phase of a project, because it's really messy.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:Triaged.
Speaker:So defect, triage was a big part of that.
Speaker:Knowing when you're done is a big part of that managing and
Speaker:communicating expectations, narrowing down to having a release point.
Speaker:You have all this chaos upfront.
Speaker:How do you funnel it down?
Speaker:And make it more predictable.
Speaker:So very often.
Speaker:It's just a moving target to your, I think to your point, right?
Speaker:Like you don't know, scope is coming in.
Speaker:You're not sure if it's going to be delivered.
Speaker:I almost think of the end of a lot of projects, agiles as well.
Speaker:Is you like your fund?
Speaker:You're just funneling the chaos down to trying to create a release
Speaker:My argument would be that the reason, many projects don't end up in a healthy
Speaker:state is because too many folks.
Speaker:Don't know how to.
Speaker:Provider or gather the info to.
Speaker:Estimate is not the word I want to use, but to provide a roadmap of this is
Speaker:what, and this is how long we think.
Speaker:I think there's too much guessing upfront.
Speaker:I'm not going to.
Speaker:Let I'm not going to disagree.
Speaker:It's gonna maybe like to allow you to retort.
Speaker:I'm going to retort with this.
Speaker:The example that led into this Medicash was a medic casters.
Speaker:I w I.
Speaker:Just released an audio book of my bed ass, extraordinarily
Speaker:bad-ass agile coaching book.
Speaker:And I approached a good.
Speaker:A colleague, a good friend who has a wonderful voice.
Speaker:Bruce Nicks.
Speaker:So Bruce he did, uh, he's a voice actor and he sounds like, um, Oh, my God.
Speaker:Um, Who's the actor.
Speaker:You know, that's going to be my next, oh my God.
Speaker:I'm not going to voice acting age.
Speaker:Couldn't be.
Speaker:In this new voice, I just.
Speaker:I was trying to deeply into the tunnels.
Speaker:Yes with deep dark night with Josh.
Speaker:Definitely.
Speaker:No.
Speaker:But Morgan Freeman is who.
Speaker:He reminds me a bit of Morgan Freeman.
Speaker:That's a hive and he's got, he's just got this cool voice and he's
Speaker:done things like voiceover for a Fox football, commercial or something.
Speaker:So he's done some.
Speaker:Sort of snippets, but the point is I approached Bruce and he said,
Speaker:yes, and it was a win-win for me.
Speaker:Wonderful boy.
Speaker:So he's he had done a couple of other books.
Speaker:That's not each tick.
Speaker:And your stick is more commercials and things like that.
Speaker:But he but he was kind enough to say, I'll do this book.
Speaker:He had done one other agile book.
Speaker:That's why I knew he do it.
Speaker:And I approached him and he said, yeah, I'll do it.
Speaker:And I said, well, how long is it going to take?
Speaker:And he said we'll get it done by.
Speaker:So the agile conference was in early July.
Speaker:And he's like, we'll have it done by then.
Speaker:And you'll be able to announce it and people will be able to acquire it.
Speaker:So he had managed my expectations.
Speaker:He communicated.
Speaker:It.
Speaker:And this was maybe in may or something like that.
Speaker:So it was going to be a month of him recording and then there was some
Speaker:processing and things like that.
Speaker:So there was a hidden part.
Speaker:His part of recording the chapters, and then there was the
Speaker:processing part and part of the processing was quality assurance.
Speaker:It's almost like software and then releasing it.
Speaker:And and I, my expectations were set for book.
Speaker:Bye.
Speaker:Because I'm trusting him as the expert.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:But I had no.
Speaker:I just went to him as the expert.
Speaker:And I really didn't challenge him.
Speaker:I set a goal of, I would love to do this in July at the agile conference.
Speaker:And he's like, yeah, we can do that.
Speaker:Maybe a little bit innovative in his voice was a question mark, but
Speaker:he was like, he didn't push back.
Speaker:He didn't give me a percentage, you know?
Speaker:It was risky.
Speaker:It was like, it can do, and then we've been off.
Speaker:And the book finally, so it passed July.
Speaker:It passed August.
Speaker:Bruce had gotten his part done right
Speaker:So his part was done before that deadline.
Speaker:But the processing has turned out to be six to eight weeks or something like
Speaker:So what was it two weeks ago or so.
Speaker:The book finally, Andy and Bruce didn't even tell me that it was released.
Speaker:I don't know if the firm he was using.
Speaker:I actually found out, cause I was, you know, me, I was checking every day.
Speaker:On audible.
Speaker:So I was literally checking every freaking day on audible.
Speaker:And finally I saw it pop up and I sent him an email.
Speaker:And then that was his.
Speaker:As the customer, I notified him that it was finally available through and
Speaker:he was using a third party service.
Speaker:To take care of the QA and all of that stuff, but
Speaker:So I that's what generated this medic casters is he did.
Speaker:I love Bruce and Bruce did a great But he did a terrible job
Speaker:of managing my expectations.
Speaker:And I think a lot of teams do that.
Speaker:Now, one of the mistakes he made is He was mad.
Speaker:I didn't know.
Speaker:So I think he totally underestimated or didn't even think about the post Bruce.
Speaker:Stuff.
Speaker:And he never talked about risk.
Speaker:It was just literally this will be available by the state.
Speaker:The thing that I want everybody to walk away with is.
Speaker:The intentional title of this episode is managing expectations,
Speaker:not setting expectations.
Speaker:That's the work that has to get done.
Speaker:And those are the difficult conversations that need to be had.
Speaker:But there is without a doubt.
Speaker:So much more appreciation for that being managed along the way.
Speaker:Then the we're good.
Speaker:We're good.
Speaker:We're good.
Speaker:Oh shit.
Speaker:We're not.
Speaker:The other thing, Bruce did it, and this is not a Bruce slam Fest because if
Speaker:he ever listened, Bruce, I love you.
Speaker:He is a wonderful guy, but we can all learn.
Speaker:We all have swings and misses.
Speaker:He didn't.
Speaker:And I think it was because it was this third party.
Speaker:There was this dance between him.
Speaker:As the recorder and the service he was using for us, but nonetheless,
Speaker:as a customer, I'm sitting out there.
Speaker:In the wind and it's like, someone tell me what's going on.
Speaker:So there's no information.
Speaker:So every inquiry I had to make.
Speaker:Which really aggravated me.
Speaker:It's like, tell me, initiate a conversation with your customer.
Speaker:Don't have the customer do that.
Speaker:So maybe that's a lesson learned to your point, managing
Speaker:expectations along the pipeline.
Speaker:The other thing is even upfront setting.
Speaker:I actually disagree with you.
Speaker:I think setting expectations is the start.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:If Bruce would have said to me, Bob.
Speaker:That would've been a better way, Bob.
Speaker:I can get my part Bye.
Speaker:July 1st.
Speaker:Right slam dunk.
Speaker:I have a hundred percent confidence in that or 98% competence in that.
Speaker:With a one week variable.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:The service I've only worked with them three times or whatever it is.
Speaker:I have no clue.
Speaker:They may take them a week.
Speaker:Or it may take them 10 weeks.
Speaker:I don't know.
Speaker:We'll manage that together.
Speaker:What that says is the conferences off.
Speaker:We can't do the conference or there's a 5% chance Bob, that we can do the conference.
Speaker:So don't hold your breath.
Speaker:Probably September as much more really autistic.
Speaker:Which is where it landed.
Speaker:And I'm guessing here because there's some variable and I'll give you a every
Speaker:two week update or something like that.
Speaker:And we'll manage it along the way.
Speaker:But that's not what happened, but that would have been a much better
Speaker:I've been, I wouldn't have, because you know what.
Speaker:I it's, I didn't, I wasn't upset about September.
Speaker:I was upset because my, the expectations weren't set properly.
Speaker:And then I got disappointed.
Speaker:If he would have said something, like I just said, I'd be happier than a clam.
Speaker:Right when it landed in September.
Speaker:Cool.
Speaker:That's exactly what he said.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:So yes, there is value in setting expectations.
Speaker:But that will not ensure success.
Speaker:To me is the point I was trying to make.
Speaker:I didn't do a very good job.
Speaker:I'm sorry.
Speaker:No, it's okay.
Speaker:Yeah, I didn't do a good job.
Speaker:Are you apologizing?
Speaker:But I mean, software there's so many more you're leaning in any variables.
Speaker:There's so many freaking variables, but to.
Speaker:To me.
Speaker:It doesn't matter.
Speaker:Any thing you're doing that takes weeks.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:And even just like doing yard work or something like that.
Speaker:You have weather variables you have right now with people doing construction.
Speaker:My neighbor's getting their bathroom remodeled.
Speaker:Remodelers came in.
Speaker:I left for two weeks.
Speaker:Why did they do that?
Speaker:So their bathroom is in a half state.
Speaker:Oh boy, which kind of sucks.
Speaker:It's because of material acquisition, it's because of that flow is
Speaker:interrupted and they couldn't get stuff.
Speaker:And then they came back.
Speaker:So if you didn't manage expectations, like the complexity of flow or emergent
Speaker:or designs or surprises exactly.
Speaker:So it sounds like.
Speaker:And this is Ober over simplifying, but if you just do agile.
Speaker:And speak.
Speaker:Boldly and confidently with the reality of what's happening.
Speaker:Your butt's covered.
Speaker:I think you also have to.
Speaker:Yes and be realistic.
Speaker:Yeah, don't be hopeful.
Speaker:Don't be hopeful.
Speaker:Don't be this op I've always felt that developers in general, We're incredibly
Speaker:optimistic in their communication.
Speaker:It may still be this way.
Speaker:And they should be more, not pessimist, but more realists
Speaker:and communicate the risk.
Speaker:That's what good project managers try to tease out when they do risk planning,
Speaker:it's obnoxious like traditional project management risk planning is obnoxious.
Speaker:But what they're trying to do is tease out Some of these variables so
Speaker:that they can manage expectations.
Speaker:There's a, it takes two to tango there.
Speaker:Can I quote you on that?
Speaker:Sure.
Speaker:It takes, I don't know if I can remember this.
Speaker:Oh, wow.
Speaker:It's his bag.
Speaker:MI ladies, how's it going to be today?
Speaker:Actually listeners, it's been like this all day before we
Speaker:hit the recording button.
Speaker:I was all over Josh and And it, I know, I know I was medic casters, to be honest,
Speaker:I get so happy to see him and quote me on
Speaker:That sometimes I Really perky.
Speaker:So here's how the recording session started.
Speaker:I had spent all morning keeping the dog in a state so that she could
Speaker:go to sleep just before 10 30.
Speaker:And it's 10 20 I'm sitting on the couch.
Speaker:She just passed out.
Speaker:I'm like, okay, cool.
Speaker:I got time.
Speaker:I'm going to carry upstairs.
Speaker:Put her in the crate.
Speaker:Ding dong.
Speaker:And the dog pops up and sprints of the door and is definitely
Speaker:not ready to go to sleep.
Speaker:But we solve that problem with peanut butter and bananas episode.
Speaker:Her favorite snack.
Speaker:Yes exactly.
Speaker:But the.
Speaker:I, I believe that optimism is.
Speaker:An equal and opposite reaction to the.
Speaker:Expectations from above that are made without.
Speaker:The appropriate amount of info on how long this should take, like the number
Speaker:of places where I've seen developers get squeezed, or be asked a thousand times for
Speaker:an estimate that they've already given.
Speaker:Are you sure?
Speaker:Yes, there's optimism, but I do believe actually I believe it's
Speaker:less optimism and more submission.
Speaker:To expectations from above.
Speaker:That's my personal I might buy that.
Speaker:I've been thinking lately.
Speaker:I've seen teams lately.
Speaker:That are saying yes too quickly.
Speaker:Or just acquiescing.
Speaker:And I think to myself, Eating as a leader, I've been in a leadership role.
Speaker:And I reserved the right.
Speaker:I want to see how you react to this.
Speaker:Cause you may.
Speaker:Undercut me.
Speaker:I reserved the right to continue to push.
Speaker:Until the team tells me it's not possible.
Speaker:I it's my job to push.
Speaker:It's my it's okay for me to say, Josh.
Speaker:The market needs this in two weeks.
Speaker:And it's, I think it's okay for me to trivialize something.
Speaker:I'm I have a different lens.
Speaker:I have a market lens.
Speaker:I have maybe a trivialization at lens or whatever.
Speaker:It's okay to push.
Speaker:But what I'm want is then I need to listen to someone says, no, that's not possible.
Speaker:And I need to appreciate the no.
Speaker:And appreciate the pushback.
Speaker:Right and modify my thinking based on the pushback.
Speaker:So I think there's a T there's a healthy tension, There
Speaker:should be a healthy tension.
Speaker:What happens?
Speaker:I think his teams generally don't push back.
Speaker:They And it's almost like a, and as a leader, like they allow
Speaker:leaders to continue to push.
Speaker:Oh like to over-commit them like You know, like 200%, 300% of their capacity,
Speaker:and I'm like, you need to push back.
Speaker:Now.
Speaker:There's someone in healthy leadership.
Speaker:That overly pushes.
Speaker:But I think it's okay for me.
Speaker:It's actually part of my job as a leader.
Speaker:Those bee hags as big, hairy, audacious goals.
Speaker:That's what I'm talking about.
Speaker:Is to be.
Speaker:Exuberant about it, but then listen.
Speaker:And I th I think that establishes the balance.
Speaker:Cause I don't want to do poor quality.
Speaker:I don't want to burn out the team.
Speaker:So react to that, but I do see the teams don't push back to.
Speaker:There's no, there's just acquiescence.
Speaker:Yes, it's a submission.
Speaker:It's a submission, right?
Speaker:It's okay.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:And I'm like, don't do that.
Speaker:Don't do that.
Speaker:It'd be effective with it.
Speaker:Now leaders play a part in this dance.
Speaker:Because they overly the minute, the team.
Speaker:I think you need to look at the team and say, okay, that's it takes
Speaker:tremendous courage for them to push back.
Speaker:Now I need to stop
Speaker:And start loosening.
Speaker:So I think there is a juxtaposition on the leadership side but I do think, I
Speaker:do reserve the right to be aggressive.
Speaker:I guess I.
Speaker:To me.
Speaker:I think there's, it's a gradient.
Speaker:You go back to the Shu Hari world and with a shoe team you're going to
Speaker:need to be much more prescriptive.
Speaker:And drive that a bit more than once you get towards the middle.
Speaker:I think you start to get towards that healthy tension.
Speaker:That's there to me, the issue that is exhibited most often in the real
Speaker:world is it's not a healthy tension.
Speaker:It is someone pushes until they get the answer that they want, which is so
Speaker:dumb because you're putting your butt on the line because you're telling
Speaker:somebody, this is how long it's going
Speaker:When you squoze, if that's a word you squoze your team to
Speaker:get the answer that you thought.
Speaker:You needed to provide a, now you're already in a bad spot because you.
Speaker:How do you believe that number when you know what you've done?
Speaker:Now what I will say is my ideal state.
Speaker:And maybe you'll never get there.
Speaker:My ideal state is that I have a team of commercially minded That I have educated
Speaker:well enough on our business, how it works, the objectives we're trying to hit.
Speaker:And they begin making those goals as a group, really owning their product
Speaker:and driving it in that manner.
Speaker:So to me, that's the end game.
Speaker:Has it happened for me.
Speaker:Once maybe twice.
Speaker:But that's my destination.
Speaker:See, I disagree.
Speaker:I disagree with park.
Speaker:So you get a painter, I'll try to.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:Great.
Speaker:I'll try to just have you get a junior painter.
Speaker:So someone who has one year of experience.
Speaker:So they're a shoe And they come in and you say, what's it going to cost?
Speaker:To paint my downstairs and they come back to you with a cost estimate of, $2,000,
Speaker:$2,500 and five days or whatever it is, and you have to move the furniture.
Speaker:And you pushed back on them and said, no, that's not possible.
Speaker:I'm having a party I needed done in two days.
Speaker:What do you think that painter is going to do?
Speaker:Most likely they're going to.
Speaker:Submit and say, okay, I disagree.
Speaker:I disagree that junior painter.
Speaker:Not if they need the business.
Speaker:No, they're good.
Speaker:They're going to say it's already 10 a day.
Speaker:You pushed him down to it's a day.
Speaker:It's a five day job and you say one day and you can start right now.
Speaker:They beat silly.
Speaker:They would be silly.
Speaker:And there, I don't know if it's the maturity.
Speaker:I think we let people off the hook a little bit with, I read this.
Speaker:So what I, the re the read I had, or what you said is it's leaning
Speaker:into leadership needs to change.
Speaker:I know that right leaders, and I'm putting the foot back on dammit
Speaker:teams need to buck up and have some courage and speak truth to power
Speaker:to, I'm not disagreeing with that.
Speaker:I'm saying, is that the very, very end of the rainbow, the very end of the rainbow.
Speaker:Super re teams that have been together for a couple years.
Speaker:Really.
Speaker:And you as a leader have worked really hard.
Speaker:To get them to understand that.
Speaker:They will drive themselves.
Speaker:Yes.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:But what I'm saying is I want shoe teams to step up to the plate.
Speaker:Agree, agree.
Speaker:Step up.
Speaker:Don't be pushed around.
Speaker:We have a medic cast audience out there you're in a shoe team,
Speaker:speak truth to power a bit.
Speaker:The leaders, it's a balancing act, but I'm getting tired.
Speaker:It's almost like we not you, but we put all this impetus on leaders.
Speaker:It's not a bad leadership and bad behavior out But it shocks me.
Speaker:Sometimes the teams don't step up.
Speaker:Like I'm a good leader.
Speaker:I am not going to give you relief if you don't ask for it.
Speaker:How about you?
Speaker:I know I have a tendency to lean hard.
Speaker:But you want it.
Speaker:The feedback then.
Speaker:Yeah, but I, but there have been times.
Speaker:Well, and we talked about this in an episode or two.
Speaker:Uh, go where I wasn't good at recognizing the health of the team.
Speaker:And I've worked really hard to get better at recognizing that.
Speaker:And I've backed myself off.
Speaker:Okay.
Speaker:And that's the balance, but I'm just, again, what.
Speaker:There's a balance between us as leaders.
Speaker:I want the teams to step up.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:I want, I want to stop using Shuhari.
Speaker:Marie is a freaking excuse, right for, oh, we'll do that when we
Speaker:get to re well, when the hell will that, so what does that mean?
Speaker:If you have bad leaders, you're going to have a miserable
Speaker:life for the next five years.
Speaker:If you even ever get to that state, have some courage.
Speaker:Like I wish Bruce coming back to my brew story.
Speaker:I wish Bruce would have just been honest and said, Hey, this is what I can con.
Speaker:I'm, I didn't have a clue.
Speaker:As a customer, I had no clue.
Speaker:Just speak truth to me.
Speaker:This is what I can control.
Speaker:This is what I can and realize that that start of
Speaker:That project is a really crucial time to do that.
Speaker:Agreed.
Speaker:I think we're saying similar things.
Speaker:I think so.
Speaker:As we often do, you know what I'm doing though?
Speaker:Also, Josh, remember we talked about this Medi-Cal version too.
Speaker:Yeah, I'm trying to let out my mice, the inner Bob, my inner Bob, a little bit.
Speaker:Not artificially.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:But yeah, I'm trying to let my inner Bob out a little bit, so
Speaker:I don't use a Balrog in there.
Speaker:There's a Y.
Speaker:It's a learning thing.
Speaker:Oh, that's okay.
Speaker:That's okay.
Speaker:Medic casters.
Speaker:I'm sorry if that hurt you.
Speaker:Say what was, what is that?
Speaker:It's okay.
Speaker:It's okay.
Speaker:He's.
Speaker:I'm old.
Speaker:He was around before those books were written.
Speaker:So I helped write them.
Speaker:What did he do though?
Speaker:Like in the fifties or something like that.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:Uh, yeah.
Speaker:Totally sure.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:I think it was okay.
Speaker:It might've been earlier.
Speaker:So did we see.
Speaker:I think we covered this.
Speaker:There's no.
Speaker:Can you wrap it?
Speaker:No, there's more than one.
Speaker:A dig into a little Because.
Speaker:We lightly touched the fact that managing expectations.
Speaker:What is that?
Speaker:Let's talk about what that looks like in a healthy manner.
Speaker:Just to make sure people have a crystal clear.
Speaker:It is on a regular basis doing some of the things that Bob said pretty early
Speaker:on is, Hey, this is what happened.
Speaker:This is what's happening next.
Speaker:Here's an updated view of where we think things are going to
Speaker:be, and these are the risks.
Speaker:And most importantly, here's how we're managing those risks.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:And that creates comfort.
Speaker:For everybody.
Speaker:Leadership yourself, the team in that, you know, the risks that are out there.
Speaker:You have plans on how to work around or through them.
Speaker:And then in.
Speaker:Be it a week.
Speaker:Be it every two weeks, be it a month.
Speaker:However you do that.
Speaker:But on a regular cadence, you need to provide all of that
Speaker:info to pretty much everybody.
Speaker:I think also maybe engage your stakeholders.
Speaker:I remember.
Speaker:Bruce would ask me to do something and because I wanted to hit the date.
Speaker:So even when you're communicating to your stakeholders, so like
Speaker:Bruce, would we use this system?
Speaker:To manage things.
Speaker:So I had a checklist and he had a checklist.
Speaker:And then we got to a hundred percent complete, and this is on
Speaker:the recording side, passing it
Speaker:And if, and when he sent me an email saying, Bob, you have to take action.
Speaker:Because I was interested in the day.
Speaker:I immediately took action.
Speaker:And I'm sending emails like I'm done with my part.
Speaker:Or I'm going to be two days.
Speaker:That actually that increased my frustration because here I am.
Speaker:Reacting quickly, but it's not helping.
Speaker:It's not helping move the ball down the field.
Speaker:So what I'm saying is it's talking about your status.
Speaker:It's also engaging people with what part they can do to help.
Speaker:But also managing and saying, will this accelerate it?
Speaker:Or will this not?
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:Go gaming help asking for help.
Speaker:So participating in the process, but also community, just
Speaker:communication, lots of communication.
Speaker:Th there is no world.
Speaker:No project, no anything.
Speaker:Where understanding.
Speaker:Risks and or bad news earlier, rather than later.
Speaker:There's no world where that's not better.
Speaker:Yeah, it's always better.
Speaker:It might be.
Speaker:Difficult scary for you to share, but again, there is no world that we live in.
Speaker:We're holding on to that hiding at pretending.
Speaker:It's not real saying, Hey, we're going to work through it.
Speaker:We'll get it done.
Speaker:There's no world war.
Speaker:That's better at all.
Speaker:Not even close.
Speaker:So do yourself a service.
Speaker:Talking early often and regularly.
Speaker:And why did you end up in a It's just, it's going to happen.
Speaker:Someone goes home.
Speaker:I remember Bruce went on vacation for two weeks.
Speaker:It was driving me crazy.
Speaker:And this was after he was done with his part.
Speaker:So I wasn't getting any communication from the vendor.
Speaker:And I wasn't getting Again, even if you go out and vacation, delegate to someone.
Speaker:You need I think maybe that's a key to this episode is continuous
Speaker:real-time communication with no sugar coating, right?
Speaker:None, zero sugar coat, maybe hope no hopefulness.
Speaker:Just real communication.
Speaker:Your leaders will love it.
Speaker:Yeah, they will.
Speaker:They will there again.
Speaker:They will love it.
Speaker:I could have handled.
Speaker:I know this isn't a software case.
Speaker:I know it's an audio book, but it's still the same thing, but
Speaker:the communication that's that would've That's what I'm saying.
Speaker:It would've made a huge difference to me.
Speaker:I wouldn't have liked it.
Speaker:But I, it I would have accepted it.
Speaker:It would've given me understanding right there.
Speaker:There's a HVHC company that I stumbled into using here.
Speaker:That I will use again forever, because when you sign up to have something fixed,
Speaker:they send you, this email of here are all the things that are going to happen.
Speaker:We and every line item has.
Speaker:This is when we think it will be done with, well, this
Speaker:requires approval from the town.
Speaker:So.
Speaker:And then every, after every step was updated, you got a
Speaker:new version of that scent.
Speaker:So you had a clear roadmap of everything that was going
Speaker:on, what the next steps were.
Speaker:Estimations of when that was going to happen.
Speaker:Risks concerns, whatever they had.
Speaker:And that's just helping manage a customer through an air
Speaker:conditioning unit replacement.
Speaker:So again, that's not, but that made a huge difference.
Speaker:I've recommended them and I will always use them.
Speaker:You know what?
Speaker:That's not even it's you almost talked.
Speaker:I don't care if that's HVAC or audio books or software development.
Speaker:Those principles are universal.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:And look at the so many casters, his eyes lit up, he got animated that
Speaker:this is not, that's just effective.
Speaker:So th that's the sort of that's the shoe Hari is managing
Speaker:expectations via communication.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:Did we land at better?
Speaker:I feel like we did.
Speaker:I just wanna make sure people walk away with an action.
Speaker:Absolutely.
Speaker:They.
Speaker:They can, like this afternoon go.
Speaker:And take action on that action.
Speaker:I don't like that wording, but whatever, whatever it is, no, but man.
Speaker:Medicare is, I hope he took this as a, we talked about audio books.
Speaker:And HVACs and some agile, but this is a serious I'm this is serious topic.
Speaker:There's a lot of.
Speaker:Unmanaged expectations in the universe.
Speaker:I would challenge you all to get better, to look in the mirror in the
Speaker:morning and say, what are we doing at.
Speaker:At an individual level, the scrum team level at an edit
Speaker:cross-organizational of across team level.
Speaker:Are we effectively managing expectations?
Speaker:I'm going to say something you may not like.
Speaker:I bet you're not.
Speaker:Yep.
Speaker:I would agree.
Speaker:I bet you're not.
Speaker:Or step up your game, step up your manage expectations game it's crucial
Speaker:and you'll see a huge difference.
Speaker:I would be willing to say 5% of work is managed well.
Speaker:We talk about how I lit up because they manage it like that.
Speaker:You don't have that reaction when that happens all the time.
Speaker:That clearly doesn't happen all the time.
Speaker:They did that.
Speaker:That was a game changer.
Speaker:It's yeah.
Speaker:I'm willing to wager.
Speaker:Significant amounts of money that less than 5% of work is managed.
Speaker:That, that, well, Stick a fork in it bed, a big fat fork.
Speaker:All right.
Speaker:Say for beautiful downtown few quaver.
Speaker:Rena North Carolina.
Speaker:I'm Bob Galen.
Speaker:Actually Anderson shake and bake take care of y'all.
