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Episode 222

222 - Change Fatigue

Yep. It's a real thing. Sadly, we often only recognize it when it's too late. That's why Bob and Josh are here! They give you tools to recognize and react both as a leader and a teammate. Do you have any tricks up your sleeve? Let's discuss!

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Transcript
Bob:

You know what.

Bob:

You talking shit all those times at the last minute you canceled.

Bob:

Come on.

Bob:

Coma.

Bob:

Come on.

Josh Anderson:

That was a long time.

Josh Anderson:

That's ancient history.

Bob:

Talk to daddy.

Bob:

Goodbye.

Josh Anderson:

All right, here we go.

Josh Anderson:

Episode 222.

Josh Anderson:

That is right.

Josh Anderson:

222 in sane.

Josh Anderson:

I can't believe we've done that many.

Josh Anderson:

And we got lots more lined

Josh Anderson:

So.

Josh Anderson:

Change.

Josh Anderson:

Yeah, this is part of what agile is all about is responding to change.

Josh Anderson:

Change can knock you out.

Josh Anderson:

Today's episode is all about change fatigue and making sure you understand

Josh Anderson:

when it's happening, know how to respond as a leader, know how to respond.

Josh Anderson:

As a team member.

Josh Anderson:

So here we go.

Josh Anderson:

We'll wave my magic wand.

Josh Anderson:

And we're off to the episode.

Josh Anderson:

Are you tired?

Bob:

Tired.

Bob:

Yeah.

Bob:

When I came in the door this morning, Josh, my butt was dragging behind me.

Bob:

I mean, I heard this sound.

Bob:

I thought it was like a square or something.

Bob:

It was my.

Bob:

I can be a lot more than the squirrel.

Bob:

I was pretty,

Bob:

I was pretty fatigued.

Bob:

Yeah, let me tell you, why do you ask?

Bob:

Well, I, you know, I've.

Bob:

Been doing a lot of changing and all my jobs.

Bob:

And I hear about this change fatigue.

Bob:

Ooh.

Bob:

And I thought maybe we should discuss.

Bob:

Would you be interested?

Bob:

I

Bob:

would, okay.

Bob:

Let's do it then.

Bob:

I mean, if I can muster enough energy.

Bob:

Yeah.

Bob:

I'll try tired.

Bob:

I'm always staging.

Bob:

Yes, but wise beyond my years.

Bob:

Yeah.

Bob:

Yes.

Bob:

Yeah.

Bob:

So there is this notion impact in my leadership class.

Bob:

I just did a cow class, a private cow class.

Bob:

And I talk about change curves.

Bob:

So to me, there's change fatigue and then a change cycles.

Bob:

Or methods cutter.

Bob:

I think John Kotter has a famous eight phase change.

Bob:

Like how do you, how do you guide, what are the phases

Bob:

of change in an organization?

Bob:

And then there's another model that I like better than that.

Bob:

A little bit.

Bob:

It's a little more fluid or a little bit more nimble.

Bob:

It's called the Virginia city tier change curve.

Bob:

Or the Citier change curve.

Bob:

It's a J curve.

Bob:

So what does the J curve mean?

Bob:

It's.

Bob:

Physical orientation of it.

Bob:

It looks like a J J.

Bob:

So you enter.

Bob:

So w she doesn't have timeframes or anything.

Bob:

And she was a social worker, so she used it.

Bob:

She used it in family, social work and child social work.

Bob:

Where families have a change, like a father leaves the

Bob:

family and that's a change.

Bob:

So how do you navigate So the J curve is I'll just for the Medicare.

Bob:

I'll just try to visualize it for But you enter with a change

Bob:

called a foreign element and you immediately get into like, Chaos.

Bob:

And there's a negative, you go below, like there's a status quo.

Bob:

So the minute you introduce a change in the city or change curve, you

Bob:

know, whatever your performance is, if your family was happy, you're

Bob:

going to get sad or whatever.

Bob:

If it's, if you introduce the change to an organization, a team might slow down.

Bob:

So you immediately slowed down.

Bob:

And you're in this, what they call, like what I call the danger zone, which is

Bob:

depending on the size of the change, you go deep into change and then broad,

Bob:

and you're trying to navigate it.

Bob:

So you're in this chaos or this dangerous zone and resistance is in there as well.

Bob:

What you try to find is a transformative idea.

Bob:

And that idea starts to like what's in it for Or how do I in a family sense?

Bob:

How am I going to go on without my dad?

Bob:

And the transformative ideas, maybe I play football or something like that.

Bob:

So then I start the transforming idea.

Bob:

Then you start integrating the change.

Bob:

And you can start coming out of the curve.

Bob:

You pass the status quo.

Bob:

So now you S you may, if it's a change that has, can have a positive

Bob:

result, let's use the family example.

Bob:

Your dad's having a negative effect, the football or the playing might actually

Bob:

get you better off than when her dad was around and not doing a good job.

Bob:

So you're integrating, and then you come out of the change curve

Bob:

and you establish a new status quo.

Bob:

So change is you, you go through these phases.

Bob:

One reason I bring it up is, to make people aware of you, don't

Bob:

instantaneously navigate change.

Bob:

There's a negative, there's a net net negative effect in navigating change.

Bob:

So you'd.

Bob:

Like, something's going to give and it's not going to, and it's going to be

Bob:

Until you turn it positive.

Bob:

Of the others.

Bob:

The another reason.

Bob:

So change fatigue, the way I describe Is what if you're in the danger zone?

Bob:

And you introduce another change.

Bob:

And you haven't navigated.

Bob:

Haven't you haven't actually integrated the previous one.

Bob:

So now you're what now you're going deeper and broader.

Bob:

And then if you, and if you introduce another change,

Bob:

Very often in agile.

Bob:

We're like, I see a lot of change organizationally.

Bob:

That's not talking about families.

Bob:

It's talking about organizations and.

Bob:

Transformation.

Bob:

A lot of organizations are like the change of the week club.

Bob:

And it's not just agile transformation is all changes.

Bob:

So if you change buildings, that's a change.

Bob:

If you are working from home and get, and then have to go back to the office reorgs.

Bob:

I think reorgs are notorious for change, like co like groups do reorgs

Bob:

a while you're doing agile change.

Bob:

So anything.

Bob:

Where we're folks are like rolling their eyes.

Bob:

So a physical manifestation of change fatigue to me is, you suggest

Bob:

something that's really, maybe let's say it's a really good idea.

Bob:

It's really relevant, but folks are like,

Bob:

Another, yet another thing we have to navigate.

Bob:

So Really relate to that in any Does it resonate with you?

Bob:

Does it not?

Bob:

It.

Josh Anderson:

It does.

Josh Anderson:

I am.

Josh Anderson:

On the other end of the spectrum.

Josh Anderson:

And throughout my career, I've had two.

Josh Anderson:

Number one.

Josh Anderson:

Recognize And then number two, adjust.

Josh Anderson:

So throughout most of my life, I was rewarded for being resilient

Josh Anderson:

to change and to evolving quickly.

Bob:

So you navigated the J curve quickly, the Citier curve quickly that

Bob:

maybe it's in your DNA to do that.

Bob:

Benefited

Josh Anderson:

me greatly in the directions.

Josh Anderson:

I wanted to go on my life to be able to do

Josh Anderson:

Okay.

Josh Anderson:

Like with football, right.

Bob:

I was going to ask you.

Bob:

I'm sorry I was wondering if football

Josh Anderson:

was a part of it because every week is a different opponent

Josh Anderson:

and you can't do the same thing.

Josh Anderson:

You get new coaches, you get new teammates.

Josh Anderson:

You'd like stuff just changes and you have to change in the middle of the game.

Josh Anderson:

So you have to be able to respond to that.

Josh Anderson:

And if you can't.

Josh Anderson:

Then somebody will probably be playing instead of you.

Josh Anderson:

Okay.

Bob:

So I, you know, I didn't put that together when you were saying,

Bob:

I thought it was just arrogance.

Bob:

Or something But no, the football makes a hell of a lot of sense.

Bob:

We've talked lightly about that before,

Josh Anderson:

And that was my.

Josh Anderson:

That was my doorway into staying on the field.

Josh Anderson:

Cause I played in front of two guys that got drafted because they were

Josh Anderson:

physically more skilled and talented and larger and faster and all of the things.

Josh Anderson:

But what I brought to the table was I gave the coaches the ultimate flexibility.

Josh Anderson:

To do whatever they wanted with my position in a role.

Josh Anderson:

And they know it would get done.

Josh Anderson:

Okay.

Josh Anderson:

So that's what kept me on the field was I became a Swiss army knife where I

Josh Anderson:

could do whatever was needed, wherever, whenever, and we can change on a dime.

Josh Anderson:

Right.

Josh Anderson:

After a play or the next

Bob:

series or whatever it was, they, you still go through those steps.

Bob:

You may not even be conscious of them.

Bob:

But you, you might go through them very quickly.

Bob:

No matter.

Bob:

On the football field in a matter of minutes or something.

Bob:

But you don't have a choice.

Bob:

Yeah.

Josh Anderson:

Especially me, It's like, well, either I do this

Josh Anderson:

or I want to be on the bench.

Josh Anderson:

I didn't want to be on the bench.

Josh Anderson:

So throughout my career, I struggled with.

Josh Anderson:

Not even knowing chain fatigue was a thing.

Bob:

Or your professional career professional.

Bob:

Yeah.

Josh Anderson:

Yeah.

Josh Anderson:

So as I became a leader, And I felt like I was helping the organization evolve

Josh Anderson:

at a fast pace to get to where we needed to be, to become who we aspire to be.

Josh Anderson:

I was crushing people.

Josh Anderson:

It just was too hard on them because they were.

Josh Anderson:

Less trained in change or something.

Bob:

Well, it's a blind spot for exactly, right?

Josh Anderson:

I didn't know.

Josh Anderson:

And I really drove some people into the ground, especially at the dude.

Josh Anderson:

And I had to recognize

Bob:

that.

Bob:

Yeah.

Bob:

There was this sort of disconnect between the level of change that you

Bob:

could navigate or inspire and what the,

Bob:

All right, I got,

Josh Anderson:

I, I gave you these tissues because I planned.

Josh Anderson:

Free to cry based on the quality of the.

Josh Anderson:

The value I was adding to them.

Bob:

The discussion.

Bob:

Yeah.

Bob:

I keep those tears inside.

Bob:

And their.

Bob:

And their tears.

Bob:

They're tears of joy.

Bob:

I

Josh Anderson:

just forgot to take my allergy medicine

Bob:

You have allergy medicine?

Bob:

Yeah.

Bob:

The dog.

Bob:

No just, just in general.

Bob:

Outside.

Bob:

Okay.

Bob:

All right.

Bob:

That's fine.

Bob:

And I'm not trying to dig into your personal life.

Bob:

Um, I was like,

Bob:

I hope you're not allergic to the dog.

Bob:

I am

Josh Anderson:

allergic to you.

Bob:

I feel the same way.

Bob:

So, no that's that?

Bob:

I never realized that about you, that you, I know you are pushing.

Bob:

But I never put two and two together that you might be.

Bob:

Sort of, I didn't know

Josh Anderson:

either.

Josh Anderson:

Yeah, it was just okay, cool.

Josh Anderson:

We did And I was looking for the next change, like, okay.

Josh Anderson:

We evolved here.

Josh Anderson:

What's the next step we need to make slash take.

Josh Anderson:

And while that drove us to evolve quickly, it also had some collateral damage that I

Josh Anderson:

wasn't aware of until I started to see it, feel it and hear it from folks on my team.

Josh Anderson:

And then I.

Josh Anderson:

Then I had to learn.

Josh Anderson:

Okay, you've got to back off.

Josh Anderson:

You have to understand.

Josh Anderson:

Like the temperature of the team, things like that, that

Josh Anderson:

I wasn't paying attention to.

Josh Anderson:

It was just, we are going down this road as fast as we can.

Josh Anderson:

Everybody hop on board.

Josh Anderson:

And if you can't keep up.

Bob:

So one of the things with the curve in the leadership classes, I, I talked to

Bob:

leaders or I'm trying to make the point that everyone has their own change curve

Bob:

speed and their tolerance for change.

Bob:

So when you're coaching people individually in one-on-ones figure

Bob:

out what their is, it there's our meet them in the J curve.

Bob:

And then help them find their transformative ideas themselves.

Bob:

So that's what, so instead of pushing them, Pushing them doesn't.

Bob:

It just does harm.

Bob:

Now what you can, if you want to accelerate, then help them navigate the J

Bob:

curve, help them find the transformative idea, help them integrate it so that

Bob:

they start seeing what's in it for them.

Bob:

And then they'll accelerate.

Bob:

They'll get optimistic.

Bob:

So that's one thing I think that the model or the metaphor helps

Bob:

with leaders is to look at that.

Bob:

Help people navigate individually through the change because we

Bob:

all have different your fast.

Bob:

FA I'm trying to think of muscles are faster.

Bob:

You're a fast Twitch in that aspect.

Bob:

Aspect of my life.

Bob:

Yeah.

Bob:

And then slow Twitch people.

Bob:

The other thing is packaging change.

Bob:

So another aspect is if you're going to navigate it.

Bob:

Then do you want to, Do you want to take small changes, large changes,

Bob:

or an aggregate like packaging of the amount of change is important.

Bob:

I think or be thoughtful about what you're like, how many changes are put together.

Bob:

And then the other thing is getting people to the status quo.

Bob:

Trying to be really reluctant to introduce a new change until, and

Bob:

it's not just achieving the new status quo, let people rebel on it

Bob:

just for the, for a period of time.

Bob:

Let them have the breath.

Bob:

Let them see the result of the change.

Bob:

Get some positive energy.

Bob:

And let them rebel and rest for a week before you drop another J curve on them.

Bob:

So those are two additional sort of thinking ideas.

Bob:

So the coaching, the packaging be strategic, and that

Bob:

doesn't mean small change.

Bob:

That could be, you know what, instead of dripping small changes, Which

Bob:

might extend the dangerous zone.

Bob:

Maybe I drop a, a moderate change.

Bob:

And then I have some patients to navigate that

Josh Anderson:

the hard Four.

Josh Anderson:

Leaders listening.

Josh Anderson:

Is that there's no equation.

Josh Anderson:

We can give you to say.

Josh Anderson:

This is how you regulate change.

Bob:

That's the challenge I have.

Bob:

I see people, but when I'm live a little bit with virtual people are blinking.

Bob:

It's is this important?

Bob:

Is this just an old man ranting and how, and what the hell

Bob:

are you telling me to do?

Bob:

And there is a that's the problem.

Bob:

There is no algorithm that you can run people through.

Bob:

You can't run individuals through it.

Bob:

You can't run an organization through it.

Bob:

It's more be cognizant of it.

Bob:

Yeah.

Josh Anderson:

So for me, when I discovered this.

Josh Anderson:

I realized, I think the term they used was really good was it was a blind spot.

Josh Anderson:

There was a blind spot.

Josh Anderson:

I had no idea.

Josh Anderson:

So I just had to start paying attention.

Josh Anderson:

And I would ask a lot of questions of leaders across the organization

Josh Anderson:

of, Hey, I'm thinking about this.

Josh Anderson:

What do you think?

Josh Anderson:

How would your team react?

Josh Anderson:

Is it too soon?

Josh Anderson:

To lay there, just whatever.

Josh Anderson:

So gathering as much data as possible.

Josh Anderson:

So I felt like I can make.

Josh Anderson:

A better choice than I have, or I would just like blindly charge.

Josh Anderson:

So again, we can't give you a plus B equals C and this is how much you

Josh Anderson:

change and when you change and how you do it, like that just doesn't exist.

Josh Anderson:

As we've covered in so many spots here.

Josh Anderson:

You're going to have to just do the hard, messy work to figure it out and try

Josh Anderson:

And see what works and what doesn't.

Bob:

I think also back off, right?

Bob:

There could be some detection.

Bob:

Yeah.

Bob:

What does change fatigue if you're overdoing Maybe you could

Bob:

characterize that a little bit.

Bob:

What did you see?

Bob:

You know what.

Bob:

Burned out people.

Bob:

What were the things that you saw?

Bob:

It got

Josh Anderson:

vocalized to me through.

Josh Anderson:

Some of the team members that I was most friendly Okay.

Josh Anderson:

So they would say Josh.

Josh Anderson:

Can we not do this?

Josh Anderson:

I'm like, why?

Josh Anderson:

Like we clearly need to do it.

Josh Anderson:

Lets it go.

Josh Anderson:

We just changed this Kenya, not do and I'm like why?

Josh Anderson:

Like what's, what's You know, so like my instant reaction is

Josh Anderson:

like, what's wrong with you?

Josh Anderson:

Why can't you handle this?

Josh Anderson:

And that after talking to you're just wearing the crap out of us.

Josh Anderson:

Yeah.

Josh Anderson:

And so they talk through what, like the previous six months were, and it

Josh Anderson:

was like a giant slap in the face.

Josh Anderson:

It was like, oh boy, you have really been failing this team.

Bob:

And the problem there is that they really care.

Bob:

You were, you are a good leader, right?

Bob:

And people work with you.

Bob:

They're loved you.

Bob:

So they would go, which is kind of a problem because, by the time you

Bob:

heard from anyone, yeah, it was like, they were already burned out.

Bob:

And fizzle, right?

Bob:

Yeah.

Bob:

Yeah.

Josh Anderson:

But that was an eye-opener.

Josh Anderson:

So again, This is where.

Josh Anderson:

My ability to change quickly.

Josh Anderson:

Paid

Bob:

off.

Bob:

So you change.

Bob:

Just slow down.

Bob:

Yeah.

Bob:

I.

Josh Anderson:

Instantly I changed.

Josh Anderson:

Yeah.

Josh Anderson:

One of the things that.

Josh Anderson:

And to me, like just a life thing.

Josh Anderson:

There was a period at Teradata after you left.

Josh Anderson:

And I think I've told this story before where I was just like, the work was

Josh Anderson:

consuming me and I came home from work one day and my wife said to me like, Hey.

Josh Anderson:

The kids say you aren't the same dad anymore.

Josh Anderson:

Like you're going to have to figure something out at work.

Josh Anderson:

Cause this isn't just working and.

Josh Anderson:

I changed instantly.

Josh Anderson:

Cause as soon as I understood how it was affecting my family.

Josh Anderson:

I felt irresponsible.

Josh Anderson:

If I let it go on another second.

Josh Anderson:

So again, that's another one of those things where.

Josh Anderson:

My ability to do that.

Josh Anderson:

Paid off.

Josh Anderson:

And it.

Josh Anderson:

Enabled air quote success.

Josh Anderson:

In that space.

Josh Anderson:

But.

Josh Anderson:

Again, I don't think I'm normal.

Josh Anderson:

In that.

Bob:

Yeah, not in that.

Bob:

I think.

Bob:

The other thing from a leadership that I was thinking about.

Bob:

Most leaders I think are driven.

Bob:

Yeah.

Bob:

And so most leaders are, they may be wired, not like you are,

Bob:

like you navigate the change.

Bob:

But I think a lot of leaders push change.

Bob:

Not just because of their own, like your internal compass was driving that,

Bob:

but you've worked in organizations where changes just coming at you.

Bob:

Hot and heavy from outside market changes leader.

Bob:

Reorgs leadership changes, et cetera.

Bob:

And as leaders, you just have to push that downstream.

Bob:

So I think this is a problem.

Bob:

I think leaders it's inherent in leadership in today's organizations that

Bob:

were probably overly pushing change.

Bob:

No, some of them are more tolerant of it or more changed, friendly than others.

Bob:

But being aware of the fatigue.

Bob:

I think it's important.

Bob:

It's an important thing to come up with some indicator or set of

Bob:

indicators for your organization of, I would say eye rolls or resistance.

Bob:

I would measure when you're getting resistance.

Bob:

I would guess.

Bob:

There's There's normalized resistance.

Bob:

There's cultural resistance that whatever's normal for the organization,

Bob:

but when it exceeds whatever normal is.

Bob:

Then you may be pushing too hard would be another indicator,

Josh Anderson:

right?

Josh Anderson:

And as a leader, you also have a responsibility to.

Josh Anderson:

Resist upwards.

Josh Anderson:

Yeah, that change is coming down and say no, exactly.

Josh Anderson:

Let's wait for six weeks.

Josh Anderson:

Or whatever the appropriate time is, and not allow that that's your duty as

Josh Anderson:

a leader to your crew that might already be fatigued, that you need to protect

Josh Anderson:

them and let them get through that curve.

Josh Anderson:

Yeah.

Josh Anderson:

So let's put the shoe on the other foot.

Josh Anderson:

You're not a leader and you're in an environment where there's a lot of change

Josh Anderson:

and you're beginning to feel fatigued.

Josh Anderson:

How could you, should you

Bob:

respond?

Bob:

I think you gave an example, probably one Powerful examples.

Bob:

I don't think you just take it.

Bob:

And a lot.

Bob:

And I think actually that's the default mode for most teams and individuals.

Bob:

It's like, it's inevitable.

Bob:

So I just have to tolerate it or something.

Bob:

And try to change myself.

Bob:

I would communicate to your leaders or whoever's driving the change.

Bob:

Like you were lucky, but you had, now you had a relationship.

Bob:

I would say, even if you don't have a relationship somehow,

Bob:

As a team or you, or get more members to communicate up because what's happening

Bob:

is you're not navigating to net net.

Bob:

You are net, net negative beyond the human being feelings.

Bob:

You, whatever in organizational change, you probably have slowed down.

Bob:

You probably lost something.

Bob:

And you haven't navigated to improvement.

Bob:

So from a pure business point of view, you have to get to that new status quo.

Bob:

And there's only one way to get there, which is internalized the change.

Bob:

As a group.

Bob:

So try to accelerate that.

Bob:

So it's in your best interest.

Bob:

To try to slow.

Bob:

Slow folks It's also in the

Josh Anderson:

companies.

Josh Anderson:

Yeah, that's interest.

Josh Anderson:

And I think that's a thing you can bring to that discussion is.

Josh Anderson:

Listen.

Josh Anderson:

This will make it difficult.

Josh Anderson:

For us to produce at the pace that we have been, and we know how important it

Josh Anderson:

is for us to do We're introducing a risk.

Josh Anderson:

If we create this change and have that discussion habit from the.

Josh Anderson:

Yeah.

Josh Anderson:

From the understanding of the business and where it's trying to go and show how.

Josh Anderson:

Not doing this right now is a good thing.

Josh Anderson:

It's not that we don't want to do it.

Josh Anderson:

Not that we don't think it's a good idea, but not right now.

Josh Anderson:

And that's where.

Josh Anderson:

In a previous episode, we talked about me returning to the scrum master role,

Josh Anderson:

the value of staying connected to.

Josh Anderson:

Doing the hard work on the front lines.

Josh Anderson:

Helps you remember that?

Josh Anderson:

You have a duty like to yourself?

Josh Anderson:

Two.

Josh Anderson:

Speak up, but also to the company, as a steward of the company, whether you're

Josh Anderson:

a leader, everybody's a leader, whether you have a leadership title or not.

Josh Anderson:

You have responsibilities to say, Hey, I think this is a bad idea.

Josh Anderson:

And here's why

Bob:

or balance the wrong I'd say that's a better.

Bob:

Right now is not the right time for us to navigate yet.

Bob:

Another thing you've had that discussion, I've heard you, I think

Bob:

talking Medicash occasionally that someone in your experience has talked

Bob:

to you and said, good idea, Josh, but now we're not going to do that now.

Bob:

Yeah.

Bob:

Right.

Bob:

We're in the middle of The other thing I want to bring back, I want to go

Bob:

back to what I've learned from sit tears model is I think I, I want to

Bob:

broaden change or keep a change log.

Bob:

So it's not just.

Bob:

Business change.

Bob:

It's all change.

Bob:

So if I remember years ago when I contact, we moved.

Bob:

From one building to the next that's a change.

Bob:

We moved floors.

Bob:

Someone met, someone said you have to move to the X floor.

Bob:

In the same building.

Bob:

That's a change.

Bob:

I wrote down.

Bob:

So Paul HR policy changes.

Bob:

Yeah.

Bob:

Org changes, learning a technology.

Bob:

You switched stacks.

Bob:

That's a change.

Bob:

T-shaped, they're pushing, T-shaped onus on me now.

Bob:

I have to do things that I'm learning.

Bob:

I'm uncomfortable, right?

Bob:

That's a change now.

Bob:

Think of agile transformation.

Bob:

There's a ton of change there.

Bob:

So it's not just agile.

Bob:

It's cumulative, whatever you're If you make people wear

Bob:

uniforms, that's a change, right?

Bob:

Whatever it is.

Bob:

If there's a global pandemic.

Bob:

Exactly.

Bob:

That doesn't mean they're not all the same, but it's cha.

Bob:

It's change.

Bob:

Fatigue is all change.

Bob:

The other part of the individual is you're not leading automatons.

Bob:

You're leading people.

Bob:

So there's life changes on those parts.

Bob:

So part of the.

Bob:

The coaching.

Bob:

The one-on-one coaching and navigating the J curve is also asking what

Bob:

changes going on in your life.

Bob:

And then using that into, oh, they've

Bob:

They've had a change in their marital status.

Bob:

They've gotten a new baby.

Bob:

I was just talking to someone yesterday.

Bob:

And it's like a seven week old baby and he was incredibly happy.

Bob:

It's his first baby, but it was also like, yeah.

Bob:

He looked tired.

Bob:

He's exhausted.

Bob:

And it's just navigating and then he's navigating change at work.

Bob:

So he's at the beginning.

Bob:

Growth change at work and it's companies growing.

Bob:

And then he's navigating role change.

Bob:

His group is growing and then he got a baby at home and he's remote.

Bob:

He's a hundred percent remote.

Bob:

And it's just that's part of it.

Bob:

I'm not trying to build this huge snowball of excuses, but when I am saying.

Bob:

Is being cognizant of changes, not just agile in our context,

Bob:

it's much broader than, than

Josh Anderson:

that's the.

Josh Anderson:

That's the danger that we live in because.

Josh Anderson:

I was effectively.

Josh Anderson:

Raised to believe that those are excuses.

Josh Anderson:

And Josh.

Josh Anderson:

The old saying was don't tell me how rough the sea is.

Josh Anderson:

Just bring it to the damn ship.

Josh Anderson:

That's how I was raised both in my childhood and in school and sports.

Josh Anderson:

And all of that.

Josh Anderson:

Again, we talked about how that enabled me to stay on the field

Josh Anderson:

was I brought the ship in.

Josh Anderson:

No matter how Rocky the seas were.

Josh Anderson:

And so.

Josh Anderson:

That was my upbringing.

Josh Anderson:

Like I've talked a lot about everybody's path to now.

Josh Anderson:

That was my path to now was an ability to always dock the ship.

Josh Anderson:

And.

Josh Anderson:

Leaders, especially the older we are.

Josh Anderson:

That was the environment that, that we were raised in and they aren't excuses.

Josh Anderson:

They are facts.

Josh Anderson:

And those facts create other facts which are change and

Josh Anderson:

distraction for that person.

Josh Anderson:

As a leader, whenever someone appears to be struggling.

Josh Anderson:

You have to start with questions.

Josh Anderson:

Absolutely understand what's going on because I am sure that

Josh Anderson:

person wants to be performing.

Josh Anderson:

At as high a level as possible because you hired them for a

Josh Anderson:

reason because they're good.

Josh Anderson:

So what.

Josh Anderson:

Is causing them to slow down.

Josh Anderson:

Right now, is it you as a leader?

Josh Anderson:

Is it the company?

Josh Anderson:

Is it life?

Josh Anderson:

Is it who knows what.

Bob:

And then help them.

Bob:

Navigate that to accelerate through the changes.

Bob:

I do want to tee up an idea and see how you react to it.

Bob:

There.

Bob:

Jeffrey Moore had that crossing the chasm book.

Bob:

And there were like five phases.

Bob:

It was early adopters and early majority, late majority.

Bob:

And then he had this notion of laggards.

Bob:

At the end of the curve and laggards were, I always think of the crossing,

Bob:

the chasm, like the 80 20 rule.

Bob:

The percent of the folks are going to change, but there's always there's.

Bob:

I think there's always going to be folks who don't.

Bob:

Who don't navigate change.

Bob:

So very little coaching.

Bob:

So they're going to be in the danger zone almost all the time.

Bob:

They're not going to navigate, they're not looking for transformative ideas.

Bob:

Et cetera.

Bob:

What do you do with That's.

Josh Anderson:

To me, you have to honor who they are and how they want to operate.

Josh Anderson:

And earlier in my career, I would.

Josh Anderson:

Grab them by the Scruff of the neck and drag them across the finish line.

Josh Anderson:

And then I started to understand.

Josh Anderson:

This is not how this person wants to work.

Bob:

That's where my brain goes to.

Bob:

What is it to the You know that bus analogy, getting the right

Bob:

people in the room, on the bus.

Bob:

And getting the wrong people off the bus and getting them another bus or something.

Bob:

And

Josh Anderson:

they're not bad people.

Josh Anderson:

Bad employees.

Josh Anderson:

It's just.

Josh Anderson:

The direction you're going, isn't a direction they want their

Josh Anderson:

career to go and that's okay.

Bob:

And it could be a change.

Bob:

The rate of change at your organization is just not for them.

Bob:

Yeah.

Bob:

And

Josh Anderson:

the standard approach I have is I help them find a job.

Josh Anderson:

I help them find.

Josh Anderson:

A place.

Josh Anderson:

That suits, whatever it is that they prefer, but too many people.

Josh Anderson:

Treat that group as castoffs.

Josh Anderson:

And don't.

Josh Anderson:

Honor.

Josh Anderson:

Who they aspire to be.

Josh Anderson:

And the fact that they are strong enough to say, I get you guys to go on that way.

Josh Anderson:

I don't want to go that way.

Josh Anderson:

And so as a leader, I can be, it doesn't matter.

Josh Anderson:

Like I did a couple of times just still coming with us.

Josh Anderson:

It's gotta be okay, cool.

Josh Anderson:

Understand it.

Josh Anderson:

How do we work through this?

Josh Anderson:

How can I help you?

Josh Anderson:

Find a spot.

Josh Anderson:

Cause then it's.

Josh Anderson:

That's the best outcome for both sides.

Josh Anderson:

That employee finds a happy place and you find an employee that wants to work.

Josh Anderson:

Through whatever change you're working through.

Josh Anderson:

When I say, I

Bob:

think if you don't do that, and again, I'm not trying to be a tool of the

Bob:

hunt, but I'm trying to have recognition.

Bob:

And then you want to have patient coaching.

Bob:

But I think if you don't do that, then those folks are going

Bob:

to increase the danger zone.

Bob:

Cause they're going to be dragging.

Bob:

They're going to be a braking system on their colleagues in the system.

Bob:

They're going to be slowing things down.

Bob:

Yeah.

Bob:

So you have to do, again, be humane, be thoughtful, be fair.

Bob:

Do all of those things.

Bob:

But also be self-aware recognize that.

Bob:

I do think there's a percentage of folks who they're just

Bob:

going to be dragging elements.

Bob:

In that model.

Bob:

I've never talked about that in the class, but now as we were

Bob:

talking through it, I'm like, yeah.

Bob:

I can see that.

Bob:

And it's, and maybe that's another that's part of the transformative part of the

Bob:

transformative idea, I think is not just for the individuals, but for the leader.

Bob:

Like the transformative ideas.

Bob:

How do I turn the corner on this change?

Bob:

And in this case, the leader recognizes that I have someone right.

Bob:

I have to make a shift for someone and one

Josh Anderson:

of the most common situations.

Josh Anderson:

In that scenario is the employee doesn't recognize.

Josh Anderson:

Yeah.

Josh Anderson:

So you have to.

Josh Anderson:

Have that discussion and oftentimes they're like, well, are you

Josh Anderson:

trying to find me like, no, I'm not, I'm not trying to fire you.

Josh Anderson:

Just having this, this discussion that I'm not sure.

Josh Anderson:

How you're going to be happy.

Josh Anderson:

Correct.

Josh Anderson:

In this job.

Josh Anderson:

And.

Josh Anderson:

If that's true after we talk it through.

Josh Anderson:

Cool.

Josh Anderson:

Let me help you find a place to be happy.

Josh Anderson:

Then make all that happen.

Josh Anderson:

And again, everybody's in a better spot.

Bob:

Now I bring this up all the time.

Bob:

I hear people talking about it.

Bob:

I usually pull folks and it's I described, chain change.

Bob:

Are you, have you seen change fatigue?

Bob:

Almost everyone has seen it.

Bob:

I interact with quite a few folks in FinTech.

Bob:

Basically they're very change.

Bob:

I think in different domains, there's different rates of change.

Bob:

FinTech is notoriously, at least in my perspective.

Bob:

Change friendly.

Bob:

What I'm trying to say is I think there's a lot of change fatigue

Bob:

So I think this is an important episode where don't just tolerate it, or if you

Bob:

like the company, don't just move on.

Bob:

It's do have communicate.

Bob:

Have these discussions where raise it up, that we're not there.

Bob:

The other thing is helped help your leaders find those transformative

Bob:

ideas, change, share those.

Bob:

If you find something.

Bob:

The what's in it for me share the what's in it for me.

Bob:

But open your mouth.

Bob:

There's a lot of aggressive change

Josh Anderson:

in the world and leaders pay freaking attention.

Josh Anderson:

Yeah.

Josh Anderson:

Like I had to learn how to because you will.

Josh Anderson:

Unknowingly.

Josh Anderson:

Do harm.

Josh Anderson:

With good intentions.

Josh Anderson:

You're doing harm.

Josh Anderson:

Yeah.

Josh Anderson:

And that's some of the most painful things you have to go through

Josh Anderson:

as leader when you realize, oh,

Josh Anderson:

Local dive done.

Josh Anderson:

Yep.

Josh Anderson:

But you have to pay attention.

Josh Anderson:

You have to think about it.

Josh Anderson:

You have to.

Josh Anderson:

Look and listen and ask

Bob:

why.

Bob:

And even something as simple as ask the teams, is this too much change?

Bob:

Like instead of injecting a change, I wish more leaders would ask their teams

Bob:

and say, I'm thinking of reorganizing, the dev ops reordering the dev ops team.

Bob:

What do you think, dev ops team, what do you, what are your

Bob:

reactions to that other folks?

Bob:

Do you think we've introduced too much change leaders?

Bob:

What do you think.

Bob:

And really just gaining like B creating safety and gaining feedback.

Bob:

I think there's uberous.

Bob:

I don't think there's a lot of permission for change out there as we want to get it.

Bob:

I don't think folks ask permission very often

Bob:

It should change.

Bob:

Maybe that's another.

Josh Anderson:

I have a real pet peeve.

Josh Anderson:

About change.

Josh Anderson:

That I've seen in some places where I've tried and tried and tried and

Josh Anderson:

tried to coach leaders out of doing Uh, but there was this very strong desire.

Josh Anderson:

To prepare.

Josh Anderson:

The change.

Josh Anderson:

Behind the scenes.

Josh Anderson:

Hold it and then have this grand reveal.

Josh Anderson:

Well,

Bob:

there's, you know, the language that I've rolling out to change.

Bob:

We need to roll it out.

Bob:

If you ever use that language, you have not.

Bob:

As permission you have thought deep thoughts behind the door, maybe with a

Bob:

small leadership And then what you're doing is plopping a pile of change on.

Bob:

You immediately go push everyone affected into the danger zone.

Bob:

Absolutely.

Bob:

And

Josh Anderson:

some of the real churn I've seen is those leadership

Josh Anderson:

teams trying to get that rollout.

Josh Anderson:

Perfect.

Josh Anderson:

Yup.

Josh Anderson:

So they keep refining and panicking or panicking and refining.

Josh Anderson:

Oh, no, this could happen.

Josh Anderson:

Oh no, this could happen.

Josh Anderson:

So then the prep for that change goes on for literally months.

Josh Anderson:

That's

Bob:

a good, that's a good.

Bob:

Point.

Josh Anderson:

And during that time, It leaks out and it leaks

Bob:

out.

Bob:

And at that point, people are like, shoot me, just introduce it.

Bob:

Right.

Bob:

I'm so tired of hearing.

Bob:

Yeah.

Bob:

And that just.

Bob:

So don't do that.

Bob:

So there's two lessons there.

Bob:

As permission and there were interrelated and get feedback from

Bob:

your team about the change early on.

Bob:

So instead of that behind closed doors, have it be transparent.

Bob:

Yeah.

Bob:

And include the team.

Bob:

And also, but also as the question of.

Bob:

Are we biting?

Bob:

Have we bitten off too much?

Bob:

Is this too aggressive and accept the, and the accept the yes.

Bob:

It is very often as a leader.

Bob:

All that's just, yeah, that's just resistance.

Bob:

My job is to drive my job.

Bob:

As I drive is through that, right?

Bob:

Yep.

Bob:

No.

Bob:

Listen to your team.

Bob:

Yeah, I think we've nailed this.

Bob:

I as usual.

Bob:

That's that.

Bob:

Are you military does come through, but no I appreciate you entertaining this topic.

Bob:

It's a, I think it's an important topic.

Bob:

So medic I hope you got something from this and just be more change, aware.

Bob:

And talk about it, leaders.

Bob:

I think we've rattled your cage a bit, so just reflect on what we've

Bob:

So from beautiful downtown few Varina North Carolina.

Bob:

I'm Bob Gamblin.

Bob:

I'm Josh Anderson shake and bake.

Bob:

Take care.

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Josh Anderson

Josh Anderson is a seasoned software professional with a passion for agile methodologies and continuous improvement. As one of the hosts of The Meta-Cast podcast, Josh brings his wealth of experience and expertise to the table. With a knack for practical advice and a penchant for engaging storytelling, Josh captivates listeners with his insights on agile methodology, team dynamics, and software development best practices. His infectious enthusiasm and dedication to helping others succeed make him a valuable resource for aspiring software professionals.
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Bob Galen

Bob Galen is a recognized industry leader and an authority on agile practices and software architecture. With years of hands-on experience, Bob brings a wealth of knowledge and expertise to The Meta-Cast podcast. As a co-host, he delves into topics ranging from agile fluency to organizational transformations, providing listeners with invaluable insights and strategies. Bob's charismatic and humorous style, combined with his ability to simplify complex concepts, makes him a fan-favorite among software professionals seeking guidance on navigating the challenges of agile development. His passion for continuous learning and his dedication to helping teams succeed shine through in each episode of the podcast.

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Lisa $10
Thank you both for sharing all your insight. It's been extremely valuable to me.